Treat kids as equals to adults or no?

It is true that we see a snippet of the family interactions when we see a tantrum.

But it is also true that a tantruming child is in pain- for whatever reason. Just because we dont’ behave exactly like that when in pain doesn’t mean that they will always and that they aren’t entitled to their pain.

Imagine you see something you really, really want. I wanted a Pfaff 7570 for a long time before I bought it. When I thought about it too much I felt the longing in my stomach and the joy I was being denied by not having it. I waited over a year for that machine. Could a child who has only lived for 5 of those long years imagine waiting that long for something she wants equally? Clearly not. I have learned over time to wait; children are still learning that.

Imagine your favorite person or pet in the world just fell down the stairs and they’re shrieking in pain because they twisted their ankle or they just lost a chance at the best job in the world. Do we dismiss the pain because it isn’t ours? Do we dismiss their pain because they aren’t “cute”? I doubt it. We react to their pain because we care about them. Parents react to their child’s pain- emotional or physical- because they care, and because it’s their job.

When I’m in traffic and there’s a noisy car next to me, or a jackhammer, I roll up my window. If I’m at a cafe and someone is smoking in a smoking-allowed area, I move away. When someone is harranging the salesclerk at Target, I tune them out. When someone’s child is tantruming, I offer sympathy to the parent if they’re open to it, distract the child if appropriate, or tune it out. I don’t invest emotionally in someone else’s problem and let my blood pressure go up because of it. I deal.

Interestingly, there is a store I frequent on a monthly basis and have for longer than my daughters’ lifetimes. Generally my girls are with me. When my younger daughter was about 2 she cried because I wouldn’t let her rearrange the display because it would make more work for the employees (was my stated reason). One of the employees commented to me that he had never before heard either of my children cry- and it wasn’t because I let them run wild. I like to believe it’s because I work very hard to prepare them for a situation, beit food or restwise, or expectations in a particular situation. It certainly isnt’ because I’m going to hit them or because they know I’ll stop my shopping if they “misbehave”. When a new situation comes up I explain the rules when they behave differently than what is expected of them. Sometimes they can’t comply because they are just too young, but why would I withhold the information from them just because they are too young? They are certainly welcome to ask for justification on the rules as well- I don’t feel it to be a threat to my “authority”. I just assume they want information, or a bargaining point to change the rules. :slight_smile:

When my Siamese cat was a kitten, we would put him outside whenever he hit the older tortoiseshell. One day he hit her and ran to the door to go out. :open_mouth: That was the last time he had that means of getting the door open. :slight_smile:

This thread completely enraged me…
Parenting is NOT a complete dictatorship, and now-days most 15 year olds are old enough to make complete decisions on their own, and can do anything any other capable person is…
I AM 15 years old, I make 50 dollars an hr, have offered to pay housing rent to my parents, and everything, they do not understand that I am old enough to make it on my own.
most 15y/o’s are not up to my maturity. that is probably because I have worked in a an office for over a year and a half (my first job, age 14, making 50 an hr, not bad a for an IMMATURE 14y/o that should be BEAT like cattle everytime I do something OUT OF LINE, right?)
and Who the HELL gives parents the right to hit their kids?
they do no own them! NO ONE owns anyone, since I’ve checked, since the EMANCIPATION PROCLAMATION!
just because I question things, does not make me a “rebel” or an “intimidating” person. I do not think that questionative behavior is all that bad, I mainly use it to see if my parents, or higher authority is using hierarchy, dictatorship, or imperialism to get their way, using the ignorance of the youth to get their way…
and Why are adults supposedly better than kids??
HOW MANY kids do you know that have NEARLY DECLARED a nuclear way on acountry across seas??
LET DOWN an ENTIRE COUNTRY
and fucked up the world for my generation anyway?
We’ve gotta clean up all of the BabyBoomer’s shit anyhow
and how much pressure do you think we are given at school?
it’s not a oneroom schoolhouse anymore where you go, and then get off school and go out and play in the hayfields, no no no,
it’s like Hell between summers, that is the best analogy I can find!!
where I go to school, we have to get AT LEAST 25 projects done by our senior year, an A on all of them, that are EXTRA, EXTRA MY ASS!! if we don’t get at least an A on them, we don’t get our diploma! we have CONSTANT ragging on by all the doctor’s Children, which of course, go out and get drunk every weekend, even though they are 16 or 17 but their parents don’t care!
do you have an clue how it must feel to be called a dyke just for wearing dark clothing?
one of my friends had this happen, also, just if you are a LITTLE Different, like… punk instead of prep, or Stoner instead of punk you get so much shit from anyone, the Cliques are so divided, you can almost not even talk to anyone else, for fear of getting your ass Kicked…
anyway… go a little easier on your kids… trust me… they get punishment enough from anyone else…
everyone tells us that we have to make the most of our childhood, when we can’t do anything at all!!!
I know a few people that if they don’t get a 4.0 average, they willg et their asses kicked at home!!!
anyway, I leave you with that

Kate, I’m not saying that I get all riled up by your child’s tantrum. Some people are much more sensitive, though. I find that a random ringing fire alarm is unwelcome, but I do tune it out. Perhaps it’s because I suspect that someone is doing something to solve the problem that the alarm indicates.

What bugs me is when parents ignore their children’s tantrums and expect everyone else to tolerate them because they’d rather just let their child cry. Is that not asking the rest of us to in some way accommodate your parenting style? I’ve said it before, and more likely than not, I’ll say it again: You do NOT want me to participate in the upbringing of your child. You will not like the results. By forcing me into a situation where I have to be an unwilling participant in your discipline, you are giving me the right to interfere with the handling of your child.

I don’t want to hear “it’s none of your business” from a parent who’s child is disturbing everyone around them. You made it my business by your inaction.

And Ad Noctum, dude, chill. No one’s saying that a 14-year-old should be treated like property. If you feel you have the necessary resources, strike out on your own. If you depend on your parents for things still, though, you owe them the proper respect. And included in that is respect for their experience. Like it or not, they probably know a lot more than you do about how the world works.

Yes, Baby Boomers screwed stuff up. Yes, it falls to our generation to fix these things. But don’t be so quick to assume we’ll do any better. The older I get (yeah, real 26-year-old voice of experience coming to you here :rolleyes:), the more I see that our parents tried as hard as they could. They didn’t mess it up on purpose.

As far as school goe, c’mon. You’re honestly not going through anything worse than any other millions of people already have. I went through it, and my younger siblings are going through it. I was more than “a little different.” You know what, though? It ends. If you need a shoulder to cry on, little bud, we’re here.

Somebody needs a spanking!

Frickin’ VB code. That was supposed to be a :rolleyes:
And divemaster, we’d prefer you not make your personal sexual fetishes an issue here. :slight_smile:

Persephone wrote:

No, but it’s the way politics works.

I am strongly of the opinion that in no way shape or form ‘lesser’ unless we are talking mass. I believe that children deserve the highest respect possible. After all, they are more than fellow human beings (albeit a bit weird), they are our future.

That being said, I, on occaision tell either of my sons, that something is so, “because I said so.” Sometimes they are too tired or frustrated to even listen (much less make sense of) to an explanation. Sometimes it is just because I said so.

I hate the idea of spanking a child. Sometimes it’s neccesary - and effective. (except, as noted above, when it’s due to a lack of control - which I consider abuse)

I expect my children to respect me, and also follow my rules without (excessive) question. As they grow older, they will be allowed an increasing part in the decision making.

As for teens… same thing goes. You gotta show your kids some respect. If you’ve done a good job during part I, you should have teens who earn and maintain your respect.

Ad Noctum:

I can understand what you are talking about. I left home for the first time when I was fifteen. I returned for about 3 months before leaving again. At 16 I was living with an older woman, being step-dad to her 2 year old. You wanna talk about being ‘mature’ for your age?

Except that I wasn’t. There was a whole section of growing up that I completely skipped. Just hopped right over, like it wasn’t there. Just because I was able to skip it, didn’t mean I didn’t need it. Even now, at thirty, I’m still suffering the effects of that choice. Had I developed a bit more ‘normally’ I’d be living an entirely different life right now.

So when you say, “Parenting is NOT a complete dictatorship, and now-days most 15 year olds are old enough to make complete decisions on their own, and can do anything any other capable person is…”

I have to disagree. Not with what you say, because yes, 15 yr olds can make complete dicisions on their own. If the parents were good parents, the decision would presumably be a wise one. But the bottom line is the 15 yr old does not have the years of experience with which to weigh the pros/cons and possible consequences of a decision.

My mom, being single, couldn’t make me stay. But, if my child, at 15 tells me he wants to go off and have be a daddy, I’m going to step in, thank-you-very-much.

I have every intention of encouraging my children to ask questions and understand the workings of the world. I consider it my job to teach to make good decisions. That involves having them actually make them, but you can bet that it will be under supervision and guidance when needed.

Sounds like you’ve got your shit together. I’d venture that you are not an average 15yr old, and it sounds that your decisions have been (at the very least, financially) sound. Good for you.

You said, “…not bad a for an IMMATURE 14y/o that should be BEAT like cattle everytime I do something OUT OF LINE, right?)”

Of course not ‘right’. Nobody said anything about beating like cattle, or ‘everytime you do something out of line’. I believe the idea is that there are times when a spanking is appropriate.

“and Who the HELL gives parents the right to hit their kids? they do not own them!”

It’s not a right, it’s a responsibility. To the ones we gave life to. To raise them in such a way that they can do better than we did. Sometimes a spanking is required, but show me someone who doesn’t hate hitting his/her child and I’ll show you a criminal who has no business being a parent.

As a non-parent, I imagine my opinions aren’t worth, much. However, I believe there’s a time and a place for different roles. They are not our equals in knowledge, experience, etc. However, they should be treated with respect. Please and thank you work amazingly well with kids. Some parents don’t think kids deserve to be treated with the courtesy you’d give any other human being who happened not to be a child. I think that’s bunk. When there is the luxury of time, and an explanation is appropriate, give one. When it’s a matter of safety, etc. the child should be expected to obey NOW.

I do not believe that spanking (a swat, not a beating) is wrong. I was spanked when I needed it and it didn’t kill me or scar me terribly. However, I don’t believe it is terribly effective for a lot of kids. My brother, for example. You could spank him over and over for the same thing and it wouldn’t phase him. He’d go right back and do it again if it was something he wanted to do.

One thing I did find as a result of my childhood is that, since my parents were very restrictive of what I could say and do, I find it very difficult to express my feelings of anger, disappointment, etc. You have to piss me off to the point of crying and trembling to get me to tell you that you made me mad. I was not allowed to express those feelings in any way. That was “bad”. I would be punished for that in whatever way. Not usually physically, but a sensitive child is going to respond to a verbal punishment as much as a physical one.

a very good article on this subject…
http://salon.com/mwt/feature/2000/08/30/parent_crisis/index.html

There was a guy who attended my university several years ago who was an advocate for children’s voting rights.

Any age, any election…

My first response, that continues till this day, was “WTF!!!”

DEWT-what do you base this one?
one word-RESEARCH
I need a new Deer Hunting Rifle, I’m gonna go within a 15 mile Radius (bike if I have to) to find which Guns I want are the least expensive, offer what I want, and the certain Caliber
just an example, but as you yourself said, I’m not a typical 15 y/o, so I can’t speak for us all…

I, on my own, chose my OWN course… my parents have been here for me if I needed them, of course, but I make my own decisions… but I’m not typical…

I got started working, the week after I turned 14… but I’m not typical…

and by the time I’m outta HS, I should be able to NAME MY PRICE for my networking services… but I’m not typical…

I make all my own decisions…

DEWT…
my dad has not spoken to my grandparents in years…
my grandmother had a heart-attack 2 months ago…
I take care of her every day, feed her, and everything, and work, and do everything a “typical” 15 year old does…

I feel I’m mature,
but… I’m not typical

Treat kids as equals to adults or no?

Simple reply: NO!

They don’t keep the drinking age at 21 for no reason. Puberty alone, aside from later menopause, will be one of the most emotionally and mentally confusing times of their lives. While kids think they know it all, they don’t and many do not think before they jump into things. By 21 they have a chance. By 30 they have changed radically.

Look at the hippie movement. The main characters all raised heck, fought the ‘man,’ the ‘institution,’ the ‘machine,’ and did not ‘trust anyone over 30.’ However, once they started bumping 30, most of them dumped the head bands, the loud shirts, dirty feet and stinking arm pits, accepted offers of high paying jobs and turned traitors to the ‘movement.’

What was magnificently important to them at 18, dulled by 23 and was only a fond memory by 28 and dumped by 30. Their maturity changed and with it, their outlook on many things.

Of course, FarTreker, we could debate whether their maturity level - their understanding of the consequences of their actions, and the ethical decisions stemming from that understanding - increased or decreased.

I will simply give the same response to Ad Noctum that I gave to my teenage daughter during one of those “it’s not fair” arguments.

By law, custom, religion and any other standard we care to use, I am responsible for you. I am responsible to feed you and see that you are not neglected. I am responsible for your medical care, and the bills that go along with it. I am responsible to see that you are educated. I am responsible for your debts. I am responsible for your UGM (Uniform Gift to Minors)accounts. And if I do not live up to those responsibilities, I can get thrown in jail.

If you wish to declare yourself emancipated, to leave this house and set up your own residence, you have that right. Of course, you will then be responsible for everything.

But as long as I bear legal and moral responsibility for your welfare, I get the final say.