…I don’t know where you are getting that from.
The people who were directly offended by the joke are from the indigenous Australian community. What makes you think that if he offers a genuine apology they would still continue to criticize him? And why would that matter?
He told a racist-as-fuck joke. He has shown no sign that he knows it was a racist-as-fuck joke, he shows no awareness of how offensive the joke actually was, so I’m not entirely sure why you want to give him a pass.
You do realize you’ve just used a hypothetical strawman, right? That is not a good basis for a defence. “I would apologize for doing something wrong, but if I do that then the reaction to my apology may offend me”
You’re meant to apologize when you know you did something wrong. The purpose of the apology isn’t actually meant to be to make people feel better about you. It’s to make a clear statement that you did something you feel bad about, and to acknowledge your screw up.
I was trying to explain why I thought he might have come to the conclusion that he did.
YMobviouslyV.
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Perhaps–but that’s not what he’s said. He hasn’t said, “that joke is fine”; he’s said, “I don’t want to set a precedent.” (Paraphrased, of course, but I think that’s the thrust of his statement).
If he said the former, I’d have an entirely different criticism for it. As it is, the idea of setting a precedent is idiotic.
Partly from something you posted earlier in the thread.
and
First, you noted that there are apologies that don’t meet your level of genuineness that were given since the #metoo movement.
Then you also noted that a genuine apology has to be given with a certain intent, not just an intent to appease. No one can know Trevor Noah’s intent with 100% certainty. The likelihood that he’ll convince everyone that his apology is genuine given that standard is low.
As you say, there have been many apologies given by celebrities. Most of them were not taken as “genuine” by everyone. There are usually critics who will question intent.
I’m not sure how you would determine his level of awareness that it was a racist joke, but to me, his acknowledgement that he stopped telling the joke after his visit to “Australia’s Bunjilaka museum and learning about aboriginal history” shows some evidence that he realized that his joke was racist and offensive.
I don’t know if you’ve already read this since this is how much of this got started, according to CNN. Basically, the exchange is about Joe Williams asking Trevor Noah to apologize, explaining that it was racist. Noah acknowledged that it was racist and that he doesn’t do the joke since he learned more about the aboriginal culture. He also accepted Williams’ invitation to learn more about the culture.
Noah has acknowledged that he was wrong, stopped doing the wrong thing and accepted an invitation to learn more about the culture.
However, he stopped short of the words ‘I’m sorry’ when social media started to unearth old jokes from him that would require him to apologize for a lot of his older material.
I’m not giving him a pass. I’m just not sure what you’re wanting him to do. As you say, the words “I’m sorry” often rings hollow when it’s not backed by action and is criticized often as not genuine. Noah has already done a lot of the action of an apology.
If this is what you’re looking for:
He can’t fulfill this more than he has already except to say the words ‘I’m sorry.’ which will probably be accepted as much as his previous actions.
Yes, this is exactly it.
I’m not defending him, and I don’t think he feels he needs a defense.
I can’t know if he feels bad about telling the joke. He did something until he knew better. He acknowledged on Twitter* that it was an inappropriate joke after learning more about the aboriginal culture and then stopped telling the joke.
*see post 184 for more on the acknowledgement on Twitter
What exactly is your point? His previous racist Twitter jokes were brought up when he got the Daily Show gig and he basically said “those were bad jokes and they aren’t where I m as a comedian any more” and he kept the job. What would he fear from such a similar outcome? A raise?
I wasn’t saying that he was saying he did right by telling the joke. I was saying that he must have felt right by his reaction to the call for an apology. After he acknowledged the joke was inappropriate and assured people on Twitter* that he wouldn’t do the joke again as well as accepting an invitation to learn about the culture, he must have felt he did right by deciding not to apologize because he was deliberate about that.
He obviously disagreed with you that “setting a precedent is idiotic”, as you put it.
*for more on the Twitter exchange, see post 184
As I understand it, he didn’t apologize then. He’s not apologizing now. His response to this is the same as it was then, as you describe. I don’t think he’s fearing anything.
That’s probably why he’s not apologizing. It would just lead to more calls for him to apologize.
What kind of dance are you trying to pull? You said, and I quote: “He can’t fulfill this more than he has already except to say the words ‘I’m sorry.’ which will probably be accepted as much as his previous actions.”. But he didn’t apologize then, according to you, but saying sorry this time will have the same result? Or maybe you thought he apologized last time and it didn’t do any good? Or maybe you are just full of shit and “just asking questions” to whatever is in front of you at the moment? The last one is my guess.
No, the “previous actions” I’m referring to are the acknowledgement that his joke was inappropriate, his action of stopping telling the joke and his acceptance of the invitation to learn about the culture in this particular issue. You’re reading my words of “previous actions” as previous issues. I’m talking about his previous actions in this issue.
I’m saying that his previous actions of his acts of contrition in this particular instance will be met with the same acceptance as any words of apology about this particular issue.
You don’t exactly strike me as someone who “gets” people so I am gobsmacked at your confidence in such a prediction.
lol Best laugh of the day. Thanks.
While I’m sure you laughed for the wrong reasons, you’re welcome regardless.
I am gobsmacked at your confidence in such a statement.
…it isn’t about “my level of genuineness.” The word “consensus” exists.
What is it, do you think that “certain intent” would be?
But there are things that we can be certain of.
For example Dan Harmon considered he owed Megan Ganz an apology.
He offered an apology, she accepted that apology.
We know this for certain 100%.
We know that Trevor Noah doesn’t think the indigenous people of Australia deserve an apology. So he hasn’t offered one.
We know this 100% as well.
The reason why Trevor Noah doesn’t think he owes the indigenous people of Australia deserve an apology doesn’t really matter.
What a load of fucking bullshit. How are you measuring “likelihood?”
And thats a pretty selfish reason not to offer an apology don’t you think?
Here’s a yes or no question for you.
We find a video of you five years ago calling Michelle Obama the N word. On the very same video you call black American women “monkey’s”.
Would you apologize now for those actions after they got unearthed? Or would you refuse to apologize because your apology might not be taken as genuine by everyone? That one or two people might question your intent?
Do you honestly think not apologizing is the best course of action?
To me that is the equivalent of a white guy saying its okay to call black people the N word because “his best friend is black.” So he visited a museum. Whoop-de-fucking shit. Does he want a fucking medal?
Of course I’ve fucking read it. I read the actual twitter exchange about a couple of hours after it happened.
No he didn’t admit it was racist. Read what he actually fucking said.
That shows just how fucking clueless he was. You don’t need to know anything about Samoan culture to realize that a joke with the punchline “all Samoan women are ugly” is a pretty fucking stupid and offensive joke.
Noah’s joke worked (for the audience) because it played into an ugly stereotype that Noah knew existed. The joke wouldn’t have worked otherwise. It wasn’t an accident. It was calculated and a deliberate act.
But he never said sorry.
He never acknowledged the joke was racist.
He only stopped using the joke when he found out people were offended.
No that wasn’t the reason why he didn’t offer an apology. The CNN article cites a single example of this happening. And its a bullshit reason not to offer an apology anyway.
Yes you fucking well are.
I suggest you read the fucking thread.
“Actions of an apology” is just “going through the motions.” “Actions of an apology” aren’t a fucking apology. Thats the fucking point.
Its not about what I’m looking for. Trevor Noah didn’t tell a joke with significant historical emotional baggage about my people. He told that joke about one of the most marginalized and impoverished people on the planet. Its all about what they are looking for.
Of course he fucking can. Nobody is holding a gun to his head saying “you can’t say the words sorry.” What the fuck are you going on about?
But his previous actions were a load of fucking bullshit. Which is why they weren’t “accepted” before.
No, that is *not *exactly it.
That is not *remotely *it.
Powers, if you don’t get it, please don’t listen to someonelse who also doesn’t get it.
Instead, go back and read the exchanges that have taken place to this point. You should get it before too long.
Or if you’re in a need-answer-quick situation, go straight to what Sunny Daze posted in #23, or maybe take a gander at what** Budget Player Cadet **wrote in #44.
And if you’ve got just a little more time, take a gander at the article **JeffB **posted in #25.
Yes, actually that IS it. Perhaps YOU don’t get it, along with those others that you quoted.
We do? :dubious: How do we know this?
Oh, well, when you put it like that…