Trolls R Us redux [Now the argument clinic]

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

Two soldiers in the Foreign Legion got lost in the Sahara and wandered for days. Having run out of water, they were close to death, when they saw a miraculous sight on the horizon: a collection of brightly colored tents, of camels, of people.

They staggered toward the first person they saw. “Water!” they gasped. But the person ignored them, holding up a tall glass. “Pudding!” the person called. “Pudding and cake!”

They went to the next person. “Please, do you have anything to drink?” But again the person ignored them. “Get your berries and cake and custard here! Low prices!”

And everyone they approached was the same. The only words they heard were “Cake” and “Fruit” and “Custard.”

At last, despairing, they staggered out of the gathering. “We’re going to die,” said one, “But I must say, that’s the strangest thing I’ve ever seen.”

“Yes,” the other agreed, “it was a trifle bazaar.”

[Gyrate]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

I taught my third-grader today how to deal with a kid who’s triflin , that is, intentionally annoying her but who doesn’t present an actual threat: stare at them, give the world’s fakest smile and two thumbs up, then drop the smile and turn away.

It’s not like you can have someone arrested for that. The law does not concern itself with triflin.

[RitterSport]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

“Yes,” the other agreed, “it was a trifle bazaar.”

That’s it. Go to your room!

[Heffalump_and_Roo]

@Max_S Since it’s clear you won’t be asking your question (and perhaps future questions) here, I looked up some places that might entertain such a question that you posed in GD that got you a suspension.

You’d have to read the rules carefully, but I think you might get a response from

r/morbidquestions

r/moraldilemmas

on Reddit.

In both of them, be careful to tag them with a hypothetical flair and focus on the morality part of the question.

At the very least, you’d know if the topic is unacceptable in another place.

Good luck finding a place to get your questions answered. I’m sure there are places where topics like yours can be discussed, as long as the poster is asking in good faith.

[MrDibble]

@Gyrate

Wow - that thread moved on a lot from the last time I checked. Max_S really needs to learn the value of stopping digging when you’re already in a hole.

Chthulu’s Viridian Balls, he’s going full-on Machinaforce:

@Max_S

And it has, to some extent. As I’ve written above I tend to disavow any hard and fast rules such as X is always wrong. The logical conclusion is that one comes to question whether death or suicide is always wrong, that philosophical abyss that stares back at you. It was a question I used to struggle with.

Expect updates about how neither Nihislism nor Buddhism do it for him, any day now.

[Max_S]

@Gyrate

Max_S really needs to learn the value of stopping digging when you’re already in a hole.

Before I opened the ATMB thread, I asked someone which of these would be the best way to proceed

• Dispute the warning (PM or ATMB?)
• Wait until I realize on my own why I deserved the warning / what I can do to avoid being warned in the future
• Wait until the suspension expires to rejoin the boards, but going forward hold my tongue in debates involving the morality of rape
• Do something else

The response was to dispute the warning in ATMB. So that’s what I did.

I’m not sure what to make of it all, not sure whether I should continue in the sexual preferences topic or whether continuing my argument there will net another warning, etc.

Based on What_Exit’s posts he thinks I am an not a troll but also trying to offend people and provoke them into breaking the rules. I tried to point out out the inconsistency there and he seemed to get mad at me for rules lawyering. I’m not sure what happened to the whole misogyny angle, not one person said anything about misogyny although that was reason #1 for the warning itself.

~Max

[Max_S]

@MrDibble

Expect updates about how neither Nihislism nor Buddhism do it for him, any day now.

To be fair I did participate in some of the Machinaforce threads.

~Max

[What_Exit]

Not what I said. But I probably failed to communicate clearly.

Your thread looked like trolling (as in a thread a Trock would start to rile up the regulars), but I do not think you are a troll so I was lenient. Does that clarify it?

Most importantly, your thread title was a horrible choice. I’m amazed you thought carefully about it and came up with it.

[Max_S]

@What_Exit

Your thread looked like trolling, but I do not think you are a troll so I was lenient. Does that simplify it enough?

It does make more sense, but it doesn’t help me going forward. I have thoughts about that, but I think expressing them in the Pit would net me yet another warning.

All comments or complaints about SDMB administration should go in the About This Message Board forum, not in the Pit.

~Max

[kayaker]

@Max_S

debates involving the morality of rape

wowowow

[What_Exit]

Just as well. I am really tired of discussing this.

[crowmanyclouds]

@Max_S

{…} debates involving the morality of rape {…}

Could you provide some links for those?

[The_Librarian]

@Max_S

I’m not sure what happened to the whole misogyny angle

LOL

You casually start a thread about your rape fantasies and you don’t see the “misogyny angle”?

Obvious Troll is obvious.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Max_S

Based on What_Exit ’s posts he thinks I am an not a troll

FWIW I don’t think you’re a troll, either. But I do think you evinced a remarkable tone deafness, to put it kindly, about the subject; and then, when you got swatted on the nose, you didn’t pay attention to the social cues you were getting.

There’s a lesson I learned from my soon-to-be-ex-girlfriend, when I was eighteen. She was a folk singer (hey, the nineties were a different time), and during a performance she sang a song that was a thinly-veiled song about my flaws, and I felt a sense of dread.

But more than that, I started to realize something: if my behavior is really bothering someone, I cannot logically debate them into being okay with my behavior. Nor should I try to do so. I can only listen to them, and then decide whether their discomfort is worth whatever benefit I’m getting from my behavior.

At the time it was a super hard lesson, it felt like I was trying to swallow a cue ball, I could barely even wrap my brain around the idea that logical debate wasn’t always the answer.

But damn if that lesson hasn’t served me well in life, and damn if I don’t think you need to learn that lesson.

You cannot debate people into not being bothered by your behavior, Max_S.

You can decide that your behavior (in this case, starting a thread that you’ll find intellectually entertaining and others will find deeply disturbing) has enough benefits that you’re okay with its negative effect on others; or you can decide otherwise. But your debate with folks who are bothered is a waste of time.

I know that lesson is incredibly hard to learn for someone who approaches the world cerebrally. Believe me, I know. But if you don’t internalize it, you’re gonna have stuff like this keep happening, and it’ll keep seeming unfair and arbitrary.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

And I’ll add that you can disagree with folks about whether it’s misogynistic, or trollish, or a rape fantasy, or whatever. But if your disagreement carries even a whiff of “So that’s why you shouldn’t be bothered,” you’ll be ignored. If you’re unwilling to acknowledge and own the negative impact you’ve had on folks, they’re unlikely to cut you any slack on the rest of it.

[RitterSport]

@Max_S

but it doesn’t help me going forward

The mods have been helpful to me in the past when I wasn’t sure about posting a topic. You could reach out to them ahead of time with your idea for a title and an OP and ask whether something is appropriate. I’ve done this a couple of times and they really helped me focus my post.

[Max_S]

@crowmanyclouds

@Max_S

{…} debates involving the morality of rape {…}

Could you provide some links for those?

Off the top of my head,

Among other considerations, how did the wrongness of the man’s rape weigh against the woman’s right to abortion? “Hypothetical: Man raped, wife and child stabbed, rapist becomes pregnant, faces death penalty”

Is rape is immoral even if the victim’s memory is wiped? “Versed, the Persistence of Memory, and Assault”

~Max

[DemonTree]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

You can decide that your behavior (in this case, starting a thread that you’ll find intellectually entertaining and others will find deeply disturbing) has enough benefits that you’re okay with its negative effect on others; or you can decide otherwise. But your debate with folks who are bothered is a waste of time.

This is the part I disagree with strongly. Being able to discuss issues freely is not (or not just) about intellectual entertainment. It’s about learning, enlarging your understanding, even changing your mind. Seeing a perspective you never considered. It’s the sort of thing students do (or used to do) at university, and it’s enormously beneficial, for individuals and for society.

There should be a place for that. No one should be forced to join in, and there should also be places where we don’t have to worry about encountering anything that deeply disturbs us. But that second place should not and cannot be everywhere.

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

you didn’t pay attention to the social cues you were getting.

Some of us aren’t so good at recognising social cues. It’s no good giving someone instructions in a language they don’t speak.

[Max_S]

I actually did learn that lesson, or something very similar, a few years back. The ATMB topic was not supposed to be about convincing anyone my hypothetical was not offensive (I admitted it was offensive to some in post #1), it was about whether I deserved a warning.

~Max

[Max_S]

@RitterSport

You could reach out to them ahead of time with your idea for a title and an OP and ask whether something is appropriate. I’ve done this a couple of times and they really helped me focus my post.

I usually do this when I’m not sure if a new topic will be allowed under the rules. With that particular topic it didn’t cross my mind that it might run afoul of the rules against trolling or being a jerk.

~Max