Recently, I came across some music in which there were alternate parts for B-flat trombone in treble clef. This alone did not bother me, as I can read B-flat treble parts just fine, and I found the bass clef parts since the freshman in my section can’t read treble. However, it got me wondering. . . is there some part of the world where trombonists often prefer treble clef? This was a piece arranged for college or high school band. It wasn’t published very long ago, either. The alternate parts were labeled “world parts.” Is this something common in other parts of the world?
Well, I’m afraid I can’t help you. I do know a trombonist (my TA this past semester) who studies musicology, so if I get a chance I’ll run it by him.
All I can say is I’m glad I play a non-transposing instrument (i.e. guitar).
Here’s a question for you: why the heck don’t all the transposing instruments just pick a day and, all together at the same time, start playing everything in concert pitches like normal people?
In Brass Band arrangements (in the British Tradition), all parts are transposed and written in treble clef, with the exception (for some reason) of the bass trombone. I play tuba in such a group here in California, and it certainly took some getting used to at first. For this type of ensemble, stuff published today still follows the tradition.
For regular “concert band” (i.e., woodwinds, too) arrangements, I don’t know what the convention is in, say, Britain. They may publish them both ways, so that players who cut their teeth in brass bands can still read the parts - I really don’t know.
Moe, I fundamentally agree with you - transposing parts has its uses, but my feeling is that it causes as many problems as it solves.
One major reason that we can’t just chuck transposition out the window entirely is the it would require the republication of the entire literature with parts written in C. Sit back for a moment and contemplate just how huge of an undertaking that would be. Unless that occurred, the best we could do is publish new stuff in concert pitch, and teach students to read both ways. It’s considered by many to be less work to just leave things as they are…
Yes, yes I know. It still seems to me like it would make more sense to just go ahead and do it though, (i.e. start publishing all new stuff in concert pitch). It is my understanding that most students do eventually learn both ways anyway because the piano usually becomes a necessary secondary instrument. Especially if you go on to study tonal harmony, counterpoint, sight singing, etc.
Hey, why don’t we publish everything both ways for awhile, just a few years, while everyone makes the crossover? you know like we do with the metric system. Hey, when’s that change going to take effect anyway?
Thanks, Brad. I hadn’t been aware that British brass bands did everything in treble. While I am a bass trombonist, the music I was looking at earlier was arranged for just two trombones. Reading treble is no problem for me, since I also play euphonium bugle in a drum & bugle corps, where treble is the traditional language for everyone from soprano down to contrabass. In British brass bands, is there any reason to write just the bass trombone in bass clef and not say, the tubas? My best guess would be that because of the range bass trombones sometimes go down to (below the bass clef staff) it’s probably easier to read them in bass clef. Although why this wouldn’t apply to the tubas, I don’t know. I’ve never had the opportunity to play with a British-style brass band.
Neil, I’m not totally certain why the bass trombone isn’t transposed in brass bands. I’ve heard some “explanations” revolving around the fact that now-rare G bass trombones were used for years, but something seems to be missing. Namely, why G is somehow less amenable to transposition than Bb.
The idea behind the whole thing in these groups was to allow players to switch instruments with a minimum of hassle. Most of these bands were small-town groups, and warm bodies historically were hard to find. I think they pretty much stuck players on whatever instrument they needed. Since all parts are transposed (to Bb or Eb, depending on the key of the instrument), fingering concerns go away - if you can finger one horn, you can finger them all.
OK, fine, I say. That explains everything except the 'bones, since the slide puts them in a class by themselves. I can understand them still wanting to transpose the parts, since 'bone players can learn valves without too much trouble. But…why leave the bass 'bone in concert pitch? I don’t know…
Traditionally, trombone parts were written in the tenor clef, one form of the C clef. This is the clef shaped sort of like a B where the “waist” of it is placed on the fourth line from the bottom. To show that this line is Middle C. So the tenor clef lines from the bottom up are D-F-A-C-E. (The C clef can also be used as an “alto clef” by placing the waist on the third line.)
Nowadays only viola parts are written in the tenor clef, but trombone parts are supposed to use it too. See the classic textbook Orchestration by Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov.
Either the treble or bass clef for trombone parts results in having to use too many leger lines going off the staff. This modern use of the bass and treble clefs for the trombone is an abomination. Sheesh–what were they thinking? Trombonists are too dumb to learn to read a C clef, even though viola players aren’t? If I were a trombonist I would feel insulted that they had taken my tenor clef away. The tenor clef keeps the staff centered in the middle of the trombone’s range.
It’s about time trombonists band together and demand a return to the tenor clef.
I believe that cellists spend a fair amount of time in the tenor clef as well, although it is not their “home” clef.
On a side note, I have always been interested in the effects of playing a transposing instrument. I am a singer and, although I do not have perfect pitch, I have a very strong physiological sense of what many pitches “feel” like in my voice. Consequently, I have a lot of difficulty singing things that are transposed away from the key in which they are written on the page. Do brass and woodwind players develop a certain mental and aural flexibility that allows them to adjust their expectations (of what they will hear when playing a certain written pitch) when they switch from instrument to instrument? Or is it just now a problem for many people?
I’ve been told somewhere that, back in The Day[sup]TM[/sup] (like Brahms’ time?) Eb alto trombones were commonly used on the first part, and their parts were generally notated in alto clef. Similarly, the 2nd (tenor 'bone) part was notated in tenor clef, and the 3rd (bass 'bone) part was written in bass clef.
That almost sounds too cute to be true. Orchestral trombone parts wind up in tenor clef pretty often, and a trombonist who can’t read it will run into trouble pretty soon if they play in an orchestra. In concert band literature, they pretty much stick to bass clef, in my experience.
I guess it should be noted that these parts in either alto, tenor or bass clef are in concert pitch (correct octave, too),while the treble clef parts are written a major ninth above the note sounded. You could write actual pitches, notating them in treble clef, but many parts would rarely climb into the staff.
So the bass & tenor clef parts are concert pitch, but treble clef parts are B-flat transposing? How confusing. That really sucks. They should be B-flat all the time or concert pitch all the time.
I have no problem with baritone horn parts in B-flat treble clef, transposing a major ninth. They are, after all, played by trumpeters manqué. (The baritone is essentially just a big fat trumpet with the plumbing arranged differently.)
But the trombone is a totally different animal. If the tenor clef is good enough for orchestral trombones, why not for band 'bones?
Aschrott, I don’t have perfect pitch, either. When I play tuba parts transposed into Bb, I don’t have any problem getting my mind in the correct “mode.”
The vast majority of the time, I play parts written in concert pitch. However, in the British brass band I play in, as I noted above, parts are transposed into Bb - they’re written 2 octaves plus a whole step above the actual pitch to be played. This one step offset doesn’t present a problem to me.
I’m thinking in the transposed system, too. When I see a notated C, I think C in my mind, when what I’m actually playing is a Bb. Like you, there is a sort of “feel” associated with given pitches, so one might expect this to cause a problem. For some reason, it doesn’t, though.
I can even flip back and forth at will, quite seamlessly - every once in a while we’ll do a piece in which the tuba parts are done in concert pitch. Actually, it’s only a problem if I’m particularly inattentive and don’t notice the clef change…interesting harmonies result.
I agree with you. Transposing all of the valved brasses into Bb or Eb as appropriate (in brass bands) makes sense - the horn’s fundamental is now a written C for everybody.
For 'bones, they should just leave 'em as is. Ah…those Brits have some strange habits…
This is probably a one in a billion chance, but by chance Neil, do you go to Baylor Universtiy in Waco Tx. You sound like a good friend I have. Just wondering. BTW what corps do you march for, I’m thinking about trying out for the Glassmen.
aschrott- About the transposing instruments, once you get used to it, it’s not really a problem. I play bass trombone, as I mentioned above, which doesn’t transpose. I also play euphonium bugle, which is basically a marching version of the euphonium but in the key of G (if you read it in treble clef). At first, though, I learned it in bass clef, so it was a minor third lower than what I was used to. When I had a B-flat, I’d think of a B-flat and at first I’d either end up on the partial above it (D) or I’d just crack the note. To solve this, I just kept saying to myself, “Okay, B-flat will now sound like G. F will now sound like D…” If I couldn’t find a higher note, I’d just work my way up the partials from the bottom. I quickly got it down. Now, I don’t even think about it, and since I read the bugle in treble, it’s just “This is a C.” So, to cut off my rambling, it’s not too hard to learn for brass and woodwind players. Only time I have any trouble with it is when I play one horn or the other exclusively for a few weeks. But it comes back pretty quickly. It’s just a mental approach between horns.
cykrider- No, I don’t go to Baylor. I live in Ohio. Coincidentally, though, I’m in the Glassmen. I think we’ve got at least a couple of other Texans here. Feel free to email any questions to me.
Unless that occurred, the best we could do is publish new stuff in concert pitch, and teach students to read both ways. It’s considered by many to be less work to just leave things as they are…