Troy was silly (spoilers)

I’ve been a huge fan of the Iliad and the Trojan War since I was a kid, so I was eager to see this. However, I couldn’t help taking notice of all the discrepancies from the literary tradition. I know the film was just a film, and that the literary tradition itself has little (if any) relation to historical reality… but if you would just indulge me for a moment as I pick out those discrepancies. Please note that I don’t mean all of these nitpicks as criticisms–some changes worked quite well, though some don’t–I just can’t help noticing them, in any case.
No gods: Most obvious difference from the literary tradition, with barely a reference to them at all (I think the temple of Apollo, and maybe a passing reference to Zeus, may be the only mention of the gods). Surprising that Athena, who played such a major role in the literary tradition, doesn’t even get a nod (not that I noticed, anyway).

Menelaus’s banquet: In the literary versions, Paris does go to Sparta as a Trojan envoy, but Hector doesn’t go with him. The movie also indicated that Paris had been visiting Helen every night during his visit, while in the literature she’s dragged away (although not entirely unwilling). The movie also went to great pains to villainize Menelaus–he’s loutish and ugly and very unsympathetic. I suppose that this makes it easier to understand why Helen would choose Paris, but Menelaus really isn’t that bad in literary depictions. Paris, on the other hand, was perfectly played by Orlando Bloom–a charismatic pretty-boy, but not much of a hand with a sword–just like the literary Paris.

Agamemnon raising the Greek/Achaen army: the movie invents the idea that Ag is intent on dominating the Aegean. Ag’s ulterior motives are absent in the literary tradition, but I think they work well in the film–while the idea that he’s just helping out his brother and defending his family’s honor works fine in the literature, for a modern movie it looks a bit silly. Giving Ag a more credible cause for war makes sense. As with Menelaus, the movie goes over the top in making Ag totally villainous and conniving. This portrayal is easier to accept, since Ag was kind of a jerk in the literature, too–maybe more of a jerk, as his sacrifice of Iphigenia shows–though the movie makes him to be more of a boor than is probably necessary.

Odysseus recruiting Achilles: in the literature, Achilles is still a teenager, living with his mom (Thesis, a sea-nymph–the movie alludes to her original status by having her wading in the waters picking sea shells–I thought this was a nice touch). Thetis doesn’t want Achilles to go to war (she’s always been over-protective in that sense–remember her dunking the baby Achilles in the River Styx to give him near-immortality), so she’s dressed him up as a girl. Odysseus is able to identify Achilles when the boy, forgetting his disguise, reaches for a sword instead of jewellery (when Odysseus offers both as gifts). A rather sexist story, so this change also made sense. BTW, I liked Sean Bean as Odysseus, and would like to have some more of his character, maybe even the scene of his own unwilling recruitment. Sequel, anyone? :wink:

Sacking of Apollo’s temple: I don’t recall any similar scene in any of the literary traditions. I think this is a reference to the Greek sacking of the nearby town of Thebe, from which Agamemnon abducted Chryseis, the daughter of the priest of Apollo. The movie seems to conflate the sacking of Thebe with the sacking of Lyrnessus (another nearby town–the Greeks got bored sitting outside Troy), which had occured much earlier in the Trojan War. It was in the earlier sacking of Lyrnessus that Achilles abducted Briseis–however, I don’t believe she was ever depicted as a priestess of Apollo, and I’m not sure if she was Paris’s cousin (though with 49 brothers, it wouldn’t be surprising of Paris was related to everybody in Asia Minor in some way or the other). Furthermore, in the literary accounts Apollo does punish the Greeks for desecrating his temple, by sending plague onto their troops, whereas in the movie Achilles rather brazenly scoffs at the idea of Apollo seeking vengeance.

The feud over Briseis: in the movie, Agamemnon immediately takes Briseis away from Achilles once he’s learned that she was among the “spoils.” In the literature, this only occurs much later that the sack of Lyrnessus–after Chryseis’s father pleads with Ag to give her back to him, he does so, but only after he’s forced Achilles to give up Briseis to compensate him (and to punish Achilles for having a smart mouth). The movie simplifies these stories by streamlining the characters.

The warriors: the Iliad of course is full of them, and tells you who each guy’s father is–even guys who only show up to get beaned by Achilles. I was a little surprised at the omission of Diomedes on the Greek side, however, and it would have been nice to see Sarpedon on the Trojan side. As for Ajax (the Great–Ajax the Lesser isn’t in the movie), he dies too soon–in the literature, he doesn’t die until after Achilles’ death, and so not at Hector’s hand (Ajax actually commits suicide).

Paris vs. Menelaus: actually follows the literary tradition pretty well, up until the end of the scene. Paris really is pitiful. In Homer, he’s escorted away (by Apollo? or Aphrodite), and then Menelaus claims victory. The movie’s twist–by having Hector defend his brother and actually slay Menelaus–works well dramatically, but it’s in total violation of the literary tradition. After all, Menelaus should survive the Trojan War, and return to Sparta reconciled with Helen.

The Trojans fighting the Greeks at the ships: for the most part, this scene is nice, and follows the Iliad’s depiction of the Trojan resurgence (during this time, Zeus orders the other gods not to interfere with the battle, and without Athena’s assistance, and with Achilles still sulking in his tent, the Greeks don’t far very well). However…the Trojan attack with balls of twine rolled over flames to make Great Balls of Fire is just Hollywood cheese.

The death of Patroclus: here, the movie takes considerable liberties while still maintaining the essence of the story (i.e., the one thing that gets Achilles off his ass is Patroclus’s death). In the movie, Patroclus is a kid–he’s never even seen battle. In Homer, he’s a formidable warrior, though young. In both versions, Pat borrows Achilles’ armor, and the Trojans at first think he’s Achilles. However, in the Homeric version, Hector recognizes it’s Pat before he fights him. When he slays Pat, Hector is actually pretty happy, and fights over Achilles’ armor (which he strips off the body)–unlike the movie, where Hector doesn’t even realize it’s Pat until after he’s dead, and senses his doom when he learns it’s Achilles’ cousin.

Hector vs. Achilles: the movie also changes things quite a bit with this scene, but I have to admit that, with all due respect to Homer, I actually prefer the movie’s depiction. In the Iliad, we see Hector turn tail and run away from Achilles. And run. And run. In fact, he runs around the walls 3 times before he finally stops and turns to face Achilles (and that’s only because Athena has appeared, disguised as Hector’s brother Deiphobus, and tricked him into thinking he’s got some reinforcements). It has always bothered me, because Hector has seemed like such a valiant warrior up until this scene and it just doesn’t seem in character for him to run away like that–even when facing the mighty Achilles. So I thought the movie’s show-down was more effective. One line, however, is almost a direct quotation from the Iliad: when Achilles tells Hector, “There can be no pacts between lions and men!” A nice touch.

Achilles and Priam: this scene, plus Achilles dragging Hector’s body around, pretty much follow the Iliad. Only difference is that a few more days transpired between Hector’s death and Priam’s visit–during this time, Achilles held the funeral games for Patroclus, and every morning he drove his chariot around Pat’s pyre, dragging poor Hector’s corpse behind.

The Trojan Horse and the sack of Troy: the movie really sped things up to get to this scene. By this moment, both armies should be pretty much depleted and exhausted (10 years of siege!). Plus, Achilles should already been dead, slain by Paris. Paris should also be dead by this moment. Briseis? I guess she’s still with Agamemnon–Ag never gave her back to Achilles, and I think the last appearance she makes is at Patroclus’s funeral. The movie also leaves out the skeptical Trojans–like Cassandra and the priest Laocoon–who warn their fellow citizens against taking the horse into the city. The sack of Troy follows the spirit of the literary tradition, although it changes things by including all those characters who should already be dead. Furthermore, Andromache (like the other Trojan women) does not escape down a secret passageway–she’s enslaved by Neoptolemus, Achilles’ son, while Astyanax is hurled from the city walls to ensure that he never grows up to seek revenge against the Greeks (in fact, the fate of which Hector warns Andromache while he’s showing her the passageway is exactly what transpires). As for Aeneas, he should be a seasoned warrior, not a kid–Paris surely knew who he was (though Aeneas has* been out there in the battlefield, while Paris has been staying indoors with Helen most of these ten years, so maybe his face wouldn’t be too familiar).

The death of Agamemnon at Briseis’s hands, of course, completely violates the literary tradition, just like Menelaus’s death does, and ruins the idea of an Orestes/Electra sequel. The two brothers would survive the war; Ag goes home to meet his death (it would have been great if they’d shown him on the boatride back to Mycaenae, saying how nice it would be to get home and relax in a hot bath) while Menelaus sails home with Helen to live “happily” ever after.

But the real ending is a terrible ending, since by the end of the story your sympathies are with the Trojans more than the Greeks–at least, mine always have been. So I don’t really mind the idea of Helen staying with Paris, and all of them along with Andromache escaping from burning Troy. If only Hector could have survived, too–but his death is essential for the tragic mood of both the Iliad and the movie, so I guess I can’t complain.

Goodness, did I kill this thread so soon?

Have I slain it as Achilles slew Hector? By bumping it, am I only tying this thread to the back of my chariot and dragging the corpse through the dust?

It is still a young thread, however, and I expect there will be subsequent posts as more Dopers see the film, perhaps by the weekend.

However, if I have indeed dealt this thread a prematurely lethal blow, it is still nowhere as impressive as my slaying of the “official” Passion of the Christ thread. A lively discussion had raged for four pages until I showed up and, with a single post, nailed it to the cross. Of all my thread-kills, I am most proud of that one.

Now I just wanna know why it is that Brad Pitt kills a Greek guy and drags him around hind his chariot and breaks open the gates of a big city and they call him a hero, but I catch a fella breaking into my house and I drag him around behind the El Camino for a few blocks and they make me take pills. It ain’t fair.

Wailing about what the movie got wrong does no good. Peterson covered his posterior in the opening titles with this line: “Inspired by Homer’s The Iliad”. . . or something to that effect. So he didn’t have to follow the original line by line.

I myself enjoyed the film but thought Brad Pitt was scored this way: Looks 10, Acting 3. Orlando Bloom, one of my personal favorites, was very, very beautiful, prettier than Helen even. And Eric Bana made a very fine Hector. It’s a fun nearly 3 hours and well worth the matinee price I paid.

Well you can say it is covering your posterior or just being honest. It seems reasonable to me that Peterson was a fan of the Illiad (or whomever pitched the movie) but realized that it wasn’t viable as it was for a movie. I agree with an earlier poster who said that the Gods probably wouldn’t really have worked. Literary Gods - good. Cinematic Gods - bad (IMHO, of course). I actually think they did a very good job of taking Homer’s story and making it into a coherent and entertaining film. At least I never once needed to have a question answered by, “Well if you had read the original book…” (cue LOTR).

I thought it was very not bad, even close to good. It’s honestly been over 15 years since I studied Greek mythology in high school, so I really didn’t care how close it came to literature.

Eric Bana impressed me as Hector. I really didn’t like him in The Hulk. This movie helps me confirm that my issue with The Hulk was the director, not the actors.

I also thought that Brad Pitt and Orlando Bloom were fine as pretty boys. Really, if you are looking for a very pretty archer, who else comes to mind other than Orlando Bloom? As far as Brad, he did seem to be bulked up a little. I liked that he had his own unique fighting style and signature moves. The shield walls were nice. Sean Bean was good as always.

Did anyone else but me really want to see Priam’s (King of Troy, right?) advisor to the gods (no idea what his name was) get a sword stuffed through his chest? About the time I realized that I wanted to see this, I realized that the movie did work for me at least at some level.

Regarding some of the complaints about the casting of Helen that I’ve seen in other threads. Remember that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I could name a few actresses that I would put above their choice for the movie, but I thought she was very believable. I second what another poster mentioned about being distracted when she dropped toga!

I really enjoyed it. I thought it seemed too short and I wish it had been longer, so they could fit in more of the stuff from Homer and Vergil (not to mention Quintus of Smyrna). The cameo by Aeneas near the end sure felt like a set-up for a sequel.
I like that they condensed the story into a shorter time period. I never found the ten-year seige believable (I suspect it may have been an ancient scribal error).

They can’t make a movie of the Aeneid. I mean, do you really think modern audiences are going to be able to keep a straight face with character names like Aeneas and Dido? We’d have theaters full of bad Beavis and Butthead imitators in a constant repetition of “Huh-huh-huh…he said dildo!”

I have been studying Greek drama this semester, and while I knew there were numerous things wrong with the film, I still enjoyed it. I liked the little nod to the Aenid as well near the end.

I think a big problem with the differences was that taking the gods out of the picture kind of has a domino effect. It was the actions of the gods which determined the sway of battles and the outcomes of duels. So if the gods aren’t doing that, there has to be some other way to explain it. Having Agammemnon and Menalaus killed off served to give the audience a sense of closure. They could have been historically accurate and had these characters survive, but the Paris vs Menalaus fight would have been less decisive, and audiences would have been dissatisfied with the characters they eventually identified as the ‘villans’ getting away scot free.

I did think they went a little overboard with Agamemnon- they make him out to be the Adolf Hitler of ancient Greece. I think the film was trying to be a little manipulative to the audience regarding the two Greek kings- shape them out to be ‘bad’ guys, then kill them off so the audience has some sense of catharsis. The problem is that even those of us that study ancient history still live in modern times, and modern ways of thinking tend to creep in when we are reading/watching a play, such as Medea or Oedipus Rex. I blame this human fault on the shortcomings of the film. Obviously the filmmaker changed some aspects of the story because he knew modern audiences couldn’t accept certain aspects of it, even if it makes it a little innacurate (buy hey, it started out as oral tradition long before Homer ever got around to jotting it down, so who knows where the truth lies)

I liked the fight scenes a lot in the film. Ajax was really cool, along with his huge shield, though I would have liked to have seen Teucer (little Ajax) sniping at Trojans from behind the shield. I also liked the way Achillies fought- the first duel he has with the Thessalonian champion is a great example-

The two champions charge at each other, then Achilles does this little side-jump-stab move and the other guy drops dead. It was in slow motion, so it must have happened in the span of 1.5 seconds :eek:

Well, I could cook up a metaphorical “tool by which your invasion is concealed and the once impenatrable gates are laid open, and Helen’s ultimate release and freedom is attained”

One of my favorite Frasier moments occurred fairly early in the series. I don’t remember the exact plot of the episode, but Niles was trying to explain to Roz that a man she thought was truly in love with her and of good character had just been an opportunist who used her for sex and money. After stumbling with words he finally says that the man “he… he… wanted nothing more than… nothing more than to be Aeneas to your Dido! THERE! I said it! I’m sorry I had to be so blunt and crude, but sometimes it’s the only way to convey the point!”

I think the team names are a relic of the adoption of the story of Troy as a foundational myth by many early modern European cultures. Most western European countries, in the Middle Ages, claimed a legendary Trojan founder – Britain’s was supposed to have been called Brutus, not to be confused with the one who killed Julius Caesar of course – and there was apparently a movement in medieval London to rename the city Troynovant (“New Troy”). This may seem inauspicious, given the fate of Troy (as you point out), but remember too that Rome was believed to have been founded by the Trojan refugees led by Aeneas. Claiming descent from the Trojans also created a connection with the Roman empire, and set up that nation as a potential heir to the Roman legacy: Troy is succeeded by Rome, which in turn is succeeded by…well, insert your country’s name here. (This concept is known as the translatio imperii.)

So when high schools and colleges choose Trojans as a team name, they’re actually taking part in a centuries-old tradition… :wink:

No idea on the condoms, though. I can’t help but think of Flanders in that Simpsons ep that spoofs the Iliad: “Now when people get wood, they’ll think of Trojans!” :wink:

I haven’t had the chance to see Troy yet – I’m looking forward to it – but what I’m really looking forward to is all the cheesy B-movie skinfest knockoffs the success of Gladiator and Troy are sure to inspire.

I’m surprised nobody’s mentione dthe most huge, glaring inaccuracy in the movie yet - namely, that Sparta wasn’t a port.

Why are condoms called Trojans? Well, you did see the Trojan helmets, I hope.

I saw this earlier tonight, and actually thought it was pretty good.

Naturally I was thinking of things to post during and after the movie but I’ve forgotten almost all of them now.

There are a few things I remember though:

-Did anyone notice that Orlando Bloom looked a lot like Clifton Gonzalez Gonzalez in this movie and think the latter would’ve done a much better job?

-What was up with the slight British accents?

-Eric Bana impressed me. I also didn’t like him in The Hulk and I groaned at his scenes in the trailer but about halfway through the movie I realized he was doing a great job.

-Achilles’ “signature move” was a bit lame, though I liked the character in general and thought he was played well.

-Did anyone start to think for a fleeting second that Achilles was going to fight Hector “to the pain”? If his speech would have gone on a little bit longer this would have been an homage.

-I’ll post more when I remember more stuff.