True Christianity Is Never Practiced

Great Debates
1

Hello, all. Not sure if this is just a question, but since it’s religious…

Over many debates of recent times on a few sites, and in this forum, we’ve discussed a lot of major religious topics. One I really can’t find is on the 613 commandments from the Pentateuch.

NEVER have I met a christian who really seems devout. Lately, when I mention what the bible states on a particular subject, the response I always, always get is, “That’s just the Old Testament…” This recently came up when someone told me their dog will be waiting for them in heaven. I cited some examples, particularly animal sacrifice, and I got from one person, “I’m christian, I don’t have to follow the Old Testament. Jesus changed that.”

So here we go. I’ve read many versions of the bible, cover to cover, as much as I can remember, Jesus upholds the OT laws on many occasions.

(I won’t post the whole chapters, but will cite and use examples from the passages.)
John 5:31-47
45-47: “Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

Matthew 5:17-48
17-19: 17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

With these examples, the answer I usually get from a christian familiar with their faith is this: “Jesus says to just love your god and your neighbor.”

Matthew 22:36-40
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’** 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

To me, this is very simple. You’re christian, your savior is directly telling you that all of the laws listed in the Pentateuch must be followed to enter the kingdom of heaven. Some will sin and can atone, but the laws MUST be followed. He is not summarizing or omitting anything, he is encouraging the OT to be followed.

I’m American, I live in the current “Deathers/Birthers/Indoctrinators” America, and I realize we LOOOOOOVE shortcuts. All humans do, but especially here. 10 commandments sounds plausible, easy number, not 613. Plus many seem to think that’s for the Jews to follow.

Thoughts, Dopers? I’d appreciate it. :slight_smile:

2

Pretty much anytime you think you have discovered The One True Way, you’re wrong.

3

Well, yes, but isn’t the start of True Christianity to follow Jesus? If so, you need to uphold the Old Testament as Jesus says, right?

To clarify, I’m not saying that the one true way is to follow the 613 commandments as a Christian, only that it’s a requirement to call yourself ANY kind of christian.

4

The thread title sums it up, but you are not the first to notice. <shrugs>

5

Well, I’m an atheist, so it’s all irrelevant to me.

That noted, you interpret the scriptures one way. Somebody else interprets them another way. The alleged inspiration therefor has failed to enter an appearance of record in the last 2,000 years. Only way to get a definitive answer would be to die, find that there is actually an afterlife, further find that said afterlife is similar to the one Christians expect, enter “Heaven” whether by stairway thereto or otherwise, and cross examine said alleged inspirator as to his/her/its intent.

6

Neither Jews nor Christians have ever believed that all 613 Torah commands apply to Gentiles. Jewish thought was that for Gentiles, keeping the Seven Noahic Laws sufficed. Christ’s death spiritually ended the need for animal sacrifice & the destruction of the Temple ended the possibility of it. The dispersion ended any application of the land-related laws. The VERY Jewish Apostles realized in Acts that Gentiles did not have to “become Jews” (be circumcised & keep kosher) to be saved. Paul extended that principle to Sabbath & festival days. You say you’ve read the Bible in many versions- try Acts to Hebrews one more time and then stand by your post. Ironically, the people most susceptible to your accusation are the “Red-Letter Christians” who claim the direct words of Jesus trump both the OT & the Apostolic Writings. Historic Christians recognize that Jesus spoke in the context of OT Law and that He commissioned His Apostles to apply His teachings to The Church, so that OT Law, Jesus’s Words, and the Apostolic Applications are all the Word of God, full of paradoxes that need to be worked out but able to be ultimately harmonized.

Believe me, you do NOT want us to start practicing the 613, just like you don’t want Jews to practice them.

7

Yeah, that’s a given. And as my wife says about Orthodox Jews, “When they grab a shovel and a handful of salt before going out back to take a dump, THEN I’ll believe they are serious.” Me, I know nothing about such things but take her at her word because she has kept a Kosher household.

Er, one without shovels and salt. And she was a Methodist at the time, but learned the prayers because she liked her roomies.

8

Shit! I knew I forgot something. Acts to Hebrews I’m going to read again later. The Red-Letter christians seem to be the ones who really didn’t read any of it, just listened to the interpretation from their local minister.

But still, the lax of laws for Sabbath, Festival days and others, there’s still a lot left to follow besides the abrupt 10 commandments list and the Noahic laws, isn’t there? (9 out of 10 people tell me Thou shat not kill, when it’s really “murder”.) And if Jesus spoke in paradoxes, and is divine, why speak metaphorically? Common sense would tell me he really didn’t get it to begin with. I would just think he probably read the OT upside down by mistake and thought it was sanskrit. Like the elders or Paul might’ve thought, “Yeah, he had heatstroke. Let’s stick with Moses or Abraham.” :smiley:

Seriously, you can include my interpretation above as a silly interpretation, but the more vocal ones I hear lately seem to be an atrocity even to believers. When I hear christianity mixed into health care (I won’t go there, I liked the other threads) and the US is a christian nation and my dog will be waiting for me in heaven, these are no longer valid interpretations.

Oakminster, I’m an atheist too. I’m supernatural free, except for bar trivia nights where I always seem to wear a Hawaiian shirt every time. Lately, it’s not religion I hate, but I really don’t like the fan clubs.

9

Yes, I should change the title of this. Something like, “True Christianity(?) Is Never Practiced”.

Mods?

10

I must admit I’m puzzled why you’re posting this. For a guy who claims to have read 7 different translations of the bible cover to cover it seems patently obvious to me that you would know the texts in question.

So what’s the deal?

A Christian who takes the view that the Mosaic Law had/has been abrogated has no shortage of texts to support their view; texts that are neither difficult or arcane. And…if you have read the bible 7 times you know them too.

Maybe you’re trying to impress. Who knows? But given your outsized claims, I’m reticent to entertain a minor league question from a guy who claims to be a major leaguer.

How about you repackage your OP with the texts in question, and we can discuss the apparent dichotomies?

11

I did put the texts in question in my OP. I apologize if 7 versions wasn’t enough, or maybe just enough to confuse me. :smack:

While growing up in Catholic school K-12, whenever I had a question of faith, the priests didn’t rattle off what they read either, they looked it up, or told me, “I’ll get back to you on that question.”

I’m not trying to impress, but eventually, when the debates of “The OT doesn’t matter to us Christians” appear again, I can possibly offer a clearer insight of the bible works.

Friar Ted was great in reminding me of Acts and the death of Christ and the destruction of the temple and how that effected some of the OT Laws. Do you have any insight on those books as well? Also, do you agree that the Old Testament “does not matter to Christians” like some other people who have told me that in religious discussion? (In the OP.) :slight_smile:

12

rescinded

13

Any particular faith may choose to follow any or all of the OT. I don’t know of any that completely reject the OT, but most would place greater emphasis on the NT for sure.

In any event, it’s clear that your loose definition of “True Christianity” means the Christianity advanced by Christ. It’s clear, however, that there was some “change” that occurred as it relates to Judaism in the immediate aftermath of Christ’s death. (there is no indication that the Jews that accepted Christ believed they were practicing anything but Judaism; for the Messiah was a Jewish belief. It wasn’t until later that Gentiles were invited in.)

In any event, there was a belief that the whole purpose of the Mosaic Law (and much of the laws that were part of it) were purposed to ready the Jews for the Messiah. In this view-----as Paul as it’s primary advocate-----the Law Code was abrogated by the death, or sacrifice, of Christ.

That didn’t come without some disputes----the dispute about circumcision in Acts 15 (iirc…) had as it’s basis the question as to whether Gentiles had to follow the Law Code. Even Peter’s vision that allowed Gentiles into Christian based Judaism was a departure from the Code; you’ll recall that Peter objected top the command to eat “unclean” beasts, and even when he met Cornelius he told them that he was deviating from what the Law Code required of him. (Acts 10)

In any event, there are some debates to be found in all of this, to wit,

  1. Were Christ’s and Paul’s ministries/doctrines in contradiction to each other?
  2. Did Paul have the authority to advance these changes?
  3. How prevalent was Paul’s views? IOW, was Paul a renegade?
  4. Did Paul have an OT basis for his words?
  5. Was the abrogation of the Law Code consistent with Jesus’s words?

In any event, it is crystal clear that among the Apostles there was a recognition -----with some disputes as noted-----that the Law Code was abrogated.

In this context, you must take your argument back to Paul, James, Barnabas, Peter & Co, because they were the ones that made this change. Modern day Christians aren’t making animal sacrifices in the backyard, because Paul & Co told them it was no longer necessary. (cited upon request)

14

Actually, the one that grinds my gears is how much trouble Christians have walking the walk of turning the other cheek, which is an express teaching from Jesus. As for the OT, whether it applies to Gentile Christians was pretty much the main point of Paul’s ministry. You’ll find the compromise resolution at Acts 15:20.

15

I agree with the OP, but don’t believe true christianity is following rules. Thats just going through motions.
I have seen some ‘true’ chrsitians who stop strangers everywhere to hand them tracts and say praise god, but refuse to help anyone who is poorly off.

16

It always seemed odd that God didn’t care much about what the Gentiles did or didn’t do, like it was an afterthought. “Oh, you guys? Eh…dunno, be cool to each other. Now leave me alone, I was busy with My people over here, can’t you see.”

17

Including their own families, sometimes. :frowning:

Christianity is an inherently selfish religion. All the rules of Christianity, no matter how variously interpreted, are all an excuse to save your own ass from hell, whether or not your sorry soul deserves to burn in hell or not. It requires no work, no dedication – all you have to do is visualize some hairy hippie phantom and bam! you’re forgiven! After that, you can make up whatever rules you want, and seek out specific bible quotes to justify your prideful behavior.

(Come to think…since Christianity is entirely about making stuff up, wouldn’t that imply that ALL Christians are True Christians?)

18

Surely you must know these Christians?

Or are you doing surveillance on them?

And, would you say that you “have seen” is representative of all Christians?

19

Why did it always seem that way?

20

If you have a soup kitchen, a food pantry, a private social service or charitable organization in your town then chances are it was started by and/or is staffed by some sort of Christians, ranging from fundamentalist to extremely liberal. This is utter bullshit that Christianity promotes selfishness & uncaring. Of course you’ll find sanctimonious selfish Christians. There is no philosophy so noble & pure that some dickwad can’t find a way to twist it to their own ends, but don’t give me some parallel-universe crap about a world full of noble altruistic unbelievers & few if any devout & self-giving Christians, because it’s just not freakin’ true and you all know it.