Raindog, I would like a cite for this post. I can’t believe you’re asking me for cites when you have provided none of your own.
I guess thats a “no”, huh?
Color me unsurprised.
Cite?
OK, raindog, let me lay this out for you real simple like. Friar Ted made a claim. I asked him for a cite (chapter and verse.) Yeah, I threw in some attempt at humor too, but my first post could really be boiled down to “Cite?” I haven’t made any claims that require a cite. I’ve asked Friar Ted to provide cites for *his *claims. I really don’t know what you’re talking about when you ask me for a cite. A cite for which claim? The claim that Friar Ted makes things up as he goes? That’s my opinion. I don’t have a cite for it other than his post that I responded to in which he makes things up as he goes.
I’ve never encountered you before. I’m not sure what to make of you. The fact that you’re jumping down my throat for cites while giving Friar Ted a free pass gives me some idea though. The fact that you respond to my post asking for a cite by asking me for a cite fills in the rest.
And if you don’t like juvenile metaphors, I suggest you stay out of religion threads.
Thanks for making it all simple like.
FTR, this ain’t my first religion thread. I don’t mean to make you a sacrificial thread lamb (pun intended) but you’re not the first to barge in with a citeless rant.
FriarTed has a long history here in religion threads and has consistently shown an ability and willingness to back up his posts with cites. At one time I spent enormous time citing texts (including highlighting and hyperlinks to the complete texts on BibleGateway) and writing extensive replies.
In time realized that most of them slinked away and were never heard again in that thread. (with a few exceptions like tomndebb that required many beatings before he would submit)
I’m not carrying water for FriarTed, and no one gets a free pass. But your post had all the hallmarks of a drive by. I know you were trying to be witty, but it had the intellectual complexity of Tapioca.
But I’ll tell you what…if FriarTed declines and you’re willing to repost your objections to him coherently, I’d love to discuss it with you.
What do you say?
You want me to respond to your entire post. Fine, I’ll do so.
Jesus never planned on becoming a zombie. The word “zombie” never appears in the gospels, nor does it appear anywhere else in the Bible. Therefore the first sentence of your OP is completely misleading, and only serves to put your ignorance on full display.
Jesus never mentioned this, because it’s something you made up. Thinks that you make up and falsely claim were placed in books usually can’t be found in books.
And how exactly do you know what’s essential to getting into Heaven. Have you been appointed gatekeeper, or are you just making up more stuff.
What evidence do you have that makes you sure of this? If you’re sure in the absence of evidence, then you’re certainly falling far short of the standard of evidence expected in this forum.
(As for the third paragraph, I’ve tackled it already.)
So, now that I’ve shown that every single word of your post is 100% false, you can no longer accuse of me of “selective quoting”. Satisfied?
You keep using that word. Let’s start by you telling me which claim I made that requires a cite. As I understand it, unless I make a claim, asking me for a cite is meaningless.
Cite for tomndebb submitting in a religion thread?
All I want is the chapter and verse where Jesus said that he would be sending people along after he was gone that would update/contradict what he said, and that to truly understand the bible you would need to know which of Jesus’s teachings to follow, and which of the apostles’ teachings to follow. Because that doesn’t sound like something Jesus would say, especially considering his statement that “**I **am the way etc…” and his promise to return in a very short time.
Read the three quotes from the gospels that you posted. The first and third quote make no mention of the kingdom of heaven, while the second quote specifically says that you can violate the laws and teach others to do so and still enter the kingdom of heaven. So there’s certainly no basis for claiming that Jesus is “directly telling you that all of the laws listed in the Pentateuch must be followed to enter the kingdom of heaven”. The first and third quote also do not instruct us to obey the laws of the Pentateuch. The second at first glance might appear to say that, but it actually says that the law “will not disappear”, which is different from saying that all of his followers must obey the entire law.
Now on the question of whether Jesus wanted everyone to strictly follow the laws of the Old Testament, the answer is very clear in the gospels. The passage in Mark that I’ve already referred to shows Jesus and his disciples picking and eating grain on the sabbath. The teachers of the law are upset about, and Jesus responds by saying point-blank that he and his disciples need not respect the prohibitions of work on the sabbath. Elsewhere in the gospels, we see Jesus healing the sick on the sabbath, eliminating punishments for adultery and other crimes, letting men and women associate with following necessary purification rituals, changing the divorce laws, and a great deal more. So his position that the old testament law can be changed. In fact, the main conflict in the gospels, between Jesus and the authorities, revolves around precisely that point.
You sure told me. I could have sworn that Jesus referred to himself as a zombie on numerous occasions. Well, now that you have conclusively proven that the word zombie does not appear in the bible (without giving a cite, I might add, which raindog will be along shortly to bitch about) I guess you win. Congratulations. My entire point rested on the word zombie being in the bible, so I’ve been destroyed.
That’s sarcasm, since you’re obviously incapable of recognizing it.
I’ll wait for **FriarTed **and then maybe we can discuss this. In the meantime, I have a [another] request. I understand nuance and sarcasm, but for the life of me I don’t know that you’re talking about.
Put together an intelligent post, k? These “zombie” references (and others) don’t have any clear sarcastic reference. The posts just look tortured.
ITR champion has shown a great willingness to discuss matters like in detail, but we’re caught up in this witless shtick.
Can it, k? Make your case. Provide cites. Stop with the One Trick Pony stuff.
This is like trying to reason with a 2 year old. Provide cites for what? Jesus Jumping Christ, man, I have not made any claims!!! Do you not get that? Tell. Me. What. Argument. I. Made. That. You. Want. A. Cite. For. Or. Stop. Asking. For. A. Fucking. Cite. Fuck! I’m sorry, but I can’t make it any clearer. What is that, five times now you’ve asked me for a cite? And three times that I’ve explained to you that I haven’t made any claims requiring a cite, and asking you to tell me what you want a cite for, and you come right back with “Provide cites?”
And you’re accusing *me *of not putting together an intelligent post? Forget it, buddy. You’re beyond help. I give up. I did not provide any cites when I asked Friar Ted for a cite. You got me. Have fun in heaven.
I’m not going to heaven. But thanks for the kind thoughts!
I’ll tell you what. We’ll start and stay all simple like, k?
Tell me what the “zombie” reference was and cite those texts and we’ll go from there, k?
I seriously doubt anyone can say exactly what true Christianity is in any definitive way. There are millions of Christians around the world and many don’t agree.
I know there are lot’s of people who use Christ’s name as a label and practice little of what he taught but I also know that there are lots of good people out there who take his words to heart. They are not perfect but they continually strive to make the world and themselves a better place. I salute and honor that.
Here’s a video a friend pointed out to me. I doubt I would agree with these folks on the details of doctrine but that doesn’t matter. They are out there really giving of themselves to a community in need. IMHO they are truly practicing what Jesus taught.
A zombie is someone who dies and then rises from the grave. I therefore referred to Jesus as a zombie. That’s it. Do you want me to cite verses that Jesus’s followers claimed he rose from the grave?
Friar Ted said that it was Jesus’s plan that apostles would follow him and write things that contradicted what he had said, and that Christians have to sort out the ensuing mess to understand the bible. I asked him for a cite. Then you asked me five times for a cite for my asking him for a cite. Which I still don’t understand.
I haven’t had time or inclination to dignify you with an answer since you display feigned ignorance of the difference between zombification and resurrection and the unfortunately conflicted history of Christendom regarding persecuting witches, slavery and usury. Basically, if you need a Biblical cite, John 14-17- in which Christ promises to the Apostles that He will bestow upon them “The Comforter” (Greek- Parakletos- Advocate, Friend, Companion), the Spirit of Truth, Who will guided them in the Truth, and in areas of sin, righteousness, and judgement. Matthew 18:18-20 and John 20: 22-23, where Jesus gives His Apostles authority to bind & loose, to forgive sins & to retain them- in other words to make judicial decisions under His guidance as to how to enforce or suspend the Law. Add to that the acceptance of the Apostles of the ministry and teachings of Paul, and the decision of their successors, the early Bishops, to accept Paul’s writings with the other Apostolic ones as Holy Scripture. Also, the example of Jesus Himself Who kept Torah and did not have a slavish literalist devotion to the letter of It but assumed to Himself the authority to take some rather elastic interpretations of It. (Of course, He had the authority to do that since, in both raindog’s and my theology, Jesus was the One Who delivered Torah to Moses anyway, except raindog wouldn’t capitalize the Jesus pronouns like I do.)
I think you’re misinterpreting Matthew chapter 5. The language about small letters and penstrokes is emphasizing that God didn’t just change the rules and throw out the old testament law; rather, Jesus fulfilled the law for everyone by living a life in perfect compliance with the law.
Misleading tripe. Even if Jesus gave authority to his disciples to do certain things, it makes no sense to believe that Jesus would have wanted the apostles to change his teachings or contradict them. Jesus never mentioned Paul or gave any authority to Paul, and we don’t know what the disciples thought of him.
More wishful thinking on your part.
Vampires die and rise from the grave also, and vampires are not zombies.
But shouldn’t Jesus have followed the book to the letter as an example to the rest of us?
Also, why didn’t they get rid of the parts that Jesus said weren’t needed anymore?
After all, the Bible has had so much removed and left out over the centuries a few more sections wouldn’t be a big deal. It’s not like it was actually written or inspired by some supernatural entity.
He did follow it as intended. Just not as the religious authorities of the time thought it should be.
The Church authorities did not have the option of editing the Hebrew Bible. It was widely known and accepted what belonged in there, and no, the Bible has not had so much removed over the centuries. It all was kept in so that the Christians would know the larger Israelite context out of which their faith emerged.
Depending on the vampire, this may be inaccurate, but it’s a far point to make. Zombies are also supposed to be dead, and their personhood is lost; what rises from the grave may use the body of the deceased, but that’s the only similarity between them, and decomposition deals with that, too. As I understand it, Jesus is supposed to not only have risen, but returned to life, and retained at least some of his aspects beyond his body.
Edit: I’d be interested in hearing more about Jesus being the one to deliver the Torah, if that’s ok. It’s not an idea i’ve heard before, and I wouldn’t mind knowing more about it.