Trump defense throwing insurrectionists under bus. What does his base think afterwards?

In our state (Minnesota) the governor had previously ordered the flags to be half mast on the 19th of each month in remembrance of those lost to COVID-19. I think it’s a nice gesture that’s been in place for many months now.

I agree. Kudos to your governor.yet another thing to love about Minnesota.

Could it happen in my state? Not a chance.

Thank goodness Limbaugh hung on till Biden was in office, else the flags would have been at half staff nationwide.

What about flying it half-mast for all the deaths in Texas. That was my first thought.

In terms of reclaiming symbols that have been thoroughly appropriated by hate-filled regimes (ie, swastika, Gadsden flag, etc.), …

I admire those who refuse to cede the concepts of patriotism and nationalism to RW crazies.

OTOH …

I’d like to take back the middle finger.

I suggest that we immediately begin using it to signify comity, enthusiastic approval, respect, affection, admiration, and love for our fellow human beings.

I’ll report back shortly with my findings :wink:

The thing about symbolism is that you can’t stop people from using a symbol to mean things. (Not even if you’re the person themself - those who used the OK sign to proclaim solidarity with white supremacy were indeed using it to proclaim solidarity, no matter what they said about it later.) And you also can’t stop people from becoming aware that terrible people are signaling their terribleness with certain symbols.

Which means that “reclaiming” the symbol is utterly impossible unless you somehow stop the terrible symbol from claiming it right back with continued usage. (I suggest freezing them in carbonite.) The best you can do is dilute the symbol, such that people think “people who fly the flag in reasonable circumstances are maybe okay, but if they fly it like a racist they’re probably a racist.”

That much is probably doable.

(puzzled Republican) Why didn’t they just fly to Cancun where they could be warm? (/PR)

Not at all, if the progressives and the pearl clutchers would just stop getting exited and trying to get people fired for making a innocent sign- then we have reclaimed it. Don’t assume the worst- unless you know they are one of the worst. Some delivery guy was almost fired as some idiot saw him cracking his knuckles or something with his left hand out the door and called the company to try and get him fired.

Don’t assume the worst.

The OK sign is NOT a white power sign. Sure white power idiots might use it, but that’s because they are idiots.

Ah, it’s all the liberal’s fault and their pearl clutching that causes hate groups to adopt symbols of their hate. Your unsupported nutpicked example proves the case!

Well, as far as the Ok sign- yes. 100%. Liberals were trolled by 4Chan.

To be specific, they were trolled by the actual fact that racists actually started using the OK sign to signal their racism. There was nothing fraudulent about the racist meaning in the symbol. The racists weren’t pretending that they were signaling their racism; they actually were.

I’m aware that they tried to float the idea that they weren’t really flaunting their racism, but that’s like swearing at your grandma, and then claiming that you didn’t really say the word ‘fuck’ because you said it ironically.

Yes, but after the trolling. In other words, even the racist started believing the 4Chan trolls. But I have seen no widespread acceptance of the sign. Did we see among the many thousand racist asshole son 1/6?

Now, it is possible that even a racist could use the Ok sign to mean… wait for it… Ok.

And there might even be a few that use it ironically.

But yeah, there have been a couple instances where they did use it as a racist secret sign. As opposed to a million times over many decades when it didnt.

So sure, if you see a white supremacist using the sign= especially upside down, then you can assume he is using it as a racist sign.

But if you see anyone that isnt a known white supremacist using it- then assuming he is a racist is ridiculous.

I’m sorry it hurts your feelings, but if I see you strolling down the street wearing a Hawaiian shirt and flashing an OK sign to the other old white guys carrying guns, I’m going to assume you’re a racist.

I’m not sure why I’m bothering to harp on this, but seriously, how do you think the “trolling” allegedly functioned? Some cabal of 4chan racists are like “hey, lets us racists ‘pretend’ to use the OK sign to ‘secretly’ signal our racism. The way this’ll work is, we’ll use it to actually signal our racism! Except not, because we’re ironically signaling our racism, which will make it so we’re not signaling our racism when we signal our racism.”

The “trolling” functioned via the co-opting of the sign to actually signal racism, under a veneer of not-very-plausible deniability. Because if it was not actually signaling racism, repeatedly and overtly, then the poor ‘duped’ liberals wouldn’t have even noticed they were doing it.

Claiming that there were only a “couple” of instances where it signaled racism is absurd and laughable. If that were true we wouldn’t even be discussing this, because we wouldn’t have heard about it.

As for why they weren’t still doing it on 1/6, memes die. It doesn’t help that it the racists ‘succeeded’ to the point that if they kept doing it they would get immediately censured, on occasion with actual consequences. So after having captured public debate with it they moved on to other things.

So much so, in fact, that I don’t think that the OK sign is an effective racist signal anymore. It certainly WAS one, but now it’s been largely forgotten. To the degree that If I saw a dude in a hawaiian shirt flashing the OK sign at a bunch of insurrectionists today, I’d assume that he was just approving of them being insurrectionists. (Which would still make him a racist, just not because of the OK sign.)

Some Cabal of 4chan assholes decided to troll the liberal. The liberal bit. After a bit, some white supremacists used it a couple times.

Just like the ADL sez:

In 2017, the “okay” hand gesture acquired a new and different significance thanks to a hoax by members of the website 4chan to falsely promote the gesture as a hate symbol, claiming that the gesture represented the letters “wp,” for “white power.” The “okay” gesture hoax was merely the latest in a series of similar 4chan hoaxes using various innocuous symbols; in each case, the hoaxers hoped that the media and liberals would overreact by condemning a common image as white supremacist.

In the case of the “okay” gesture, the hoax was so successful the symbol became a popular trolling tactic on the part of right-leaning individuals, who would often post photos to social media of themselves posing while making the “okay” gesture.

Ironically, some white supremacists themselves soon also participated in such trolling tactics, lending an actual credence to those who labeled the trolling gesture as racist in nature. By 2019, at least some white supremacists seem to have abandoned the ironic or satiric intent behind the original trolling campaign and used the symbol as a sincere expression of white supremacy, such as when Australian white supremacist Brenton Tarrant flashed the symbol during a March 2019 courtroom appearance soon after his arrest for allegedly murdering 50 people in a shooting spree at mosques in Christchurch, New Zealand.

The overwhelming usage of the “okay” hand gesture today is still its traditional purpose as a gesture signifying assent or approval. As a result, someone who uses the symbol cannot be assumed to be using the symbol in either a trolling or, especially, white supremacist context unless other contextual evidence exists to support the contention. Since 2017, many people have been falsely accused of being racist or white supremacist for using the “okay” gesture in its traditional and innocuous sense.

It never was one. All it served was to get some normal, non racist white guys almost fired.

Or to sum it up, some (alleged, unconvincingly) non-racists decided to ACTUALLY use the OK sign as a white supremacist symbol, in order to piss off normal people who both don’t like racist signaling, and don’t like the OK symbol being co-opted.

Compare if the (allegedly) non-racist trolls had decided to just start using the N-word, to troll people. Would you be saying that in that context the N-word isn’t being used as a racist signal?

And no racist guys got fired. Not a one. Not a single actual racist made the sign, revealing themselves as a racist and getting themself deservedly fired. This certainly did not happen.

You know what the difference between a troll pretending to be a racist and a racist is?

There really isn’t one.