That I dispute - we in Indiana have prior experience with Pence’s non-handling of a public health emergency and I’d say the Trump/Pence administration’s screw up with Covid is par for the course for Pence.
Otherwise, though - Pence at least has demonstrated that he would uphold the constitution. With hindsight, he would have been preferable as PotUS.
I hasten to add that is an exceedingly low bar to get over. Pence is not someone I’d suggest as PotUS, except in comparison to an incompetent, fascist traitor like Trump.
Up until January 6th I might have agreed Pence was more dangerous than Trump. I have changed my mind.
Quite a few Senators were in the gallery, with permission, because of the need for social distancing. That’s fine.
Ignoring the proceedings is the objectionable part of his behavior.
The early part of today’s session the impeachment managers were hammering away at that. Then I had to do some work stuff and drive home so I’m not sure about the middle part of today’s session.
I have no idea what Trump was thinking, but the mob was thinking “Kill Pence” and “Kill Pelosi”. I don’t think they have plans about who would be VP and Speaker of the House after that, I think some of them were just eager for violence and blood.
Of course not - being a fascist dictator is something only demagogues on their side can do.
What too many of them still don’t seem to realize is that someone like Trump is on no one’s side but his own and no matter how loyal a person is someone like Trump will happily throw that loyalist to homicidal mob - because Trump did exactly that on January 6th. Yet they still can’t see that.
I would kind of like there to be a closing speech which says ‘Republican Senators, we know and understand that you’re afraid of crossing these people. But if you’re afraid of them now – don’t you see that you’ll need to be even more afraid of them if you encourage them, and thus strengthen them, by voting to acquit?’
And Pence is still there, don’t forget. He’s only 61. (Though he may be weakened because now the never-Trumps associate him with Trump but the Trumpists hate him because he wouldn’t try to help steal the election.)
Too late. There already is an Independent Party. – actually, several.
Well, that’s a good point.
Tell you what: let’s hope we don’t find out.
Yeah. This is part of what I have trouble wrapping my head around. Maybe when they voted for him they didn’t notice all the unpaid contractors, or somehow believed Trump that they’d all done shoddy work. But how, after four years of Trump very visibly throwing people under the bus followed by January 6, how can anybody believe that Trump can be trusted not to do the same to them?
I think you guys are putting the focus on the wrong place. My guess is that most of the GOP senators would love to be done with Trump and would vote to get rid of him if the ballot was secret. They are not afraid of Trump but the Trumpist voters. “Will Trump come back to haunt us” is barely in their (the senators’) thoughts. Like almost all politicians, it’s “what will my constituents vote?”.
And according to the Constitution, 20 Senators can force any vote to be recorded in the official Senate Journal. But the Senate can choose to keep any part of the Journal secret with a simple majority vote. But that decision can be reversed and the “secret” section published at any later time. So a “secret” ballot would only be kinda-sorta secret.
Right, but those voters are still controlled by Trump. For GOP politicians, the problem is that at any moment Trump can tell those voters what to do and who to vote against and they will do it. Now, he can’t do this in the same was he used to now that he’s lost his Twitter cannon, but they are all absolutely afraid of his influence with those voters.
But I don’t think it would matter unless they senators that voted to convict were willing to completely lie about it and maintain the lie through repeated questioning.
Because every single senator that votes to acquit, the Hawley’s and Cruz’s, will say how they voted, loudly and proudly and repeatedly, and everyone can do the math. So unless the ones that vote to convict are willing to brazen it out and lie just as loudly and repeatedly, a secret ballot would make no difference.
And they only kinda-sorta have the power to keep it secret.
Again, only 20 Senators can force the vote to be recorded. The Senate can keep that section secret - but only transiently. It can be overturned at any time. And the other Senators would know how everyone voted. And the “secret” journal isn’t classified. I don’t think there would be anything illegal about a Trumpist Senator just saying how everyone’s votes were recorded in the Journal. They’d probably be in violation of Senate rules if they did, and they could face some sort of sanction, but would that be enough to deter, say, Senator Hawley from revealing the names of the RINOs who “betrayed” Trump?
Is that enough of a “secret ballot” to convince Republicans who don’t want their votes revealed to be confident enough to vote to convict? I genuinely don’t know. Maybe?
And what exactly do you think is stopping them from lying about it? I doubt anyone in Congress is a paragon of truth and a bastion of honesty. Frankly, lying to protect one’s family from a bunch of fascist thugs is pretty low down on the ranking of sins.
I think the 30+ Republican senators in the middle really need to just close their eyes, hold hands and jump. It might just work, because Trump can only go hard after so many people, also, political speaking, two years is a long time.
They should because they haven’t realized yet what they should know by now, and what Mike Pence really should know but probably doesn’t - there is no end. If you do something amoral for Trump, you aren’t banking anything. He doesn’t “owe you one”. The only reason to bend your soul for him is to prevent him from destroying you now.
But there will always be something else you need to do for him, there is no end. And it will keep getting worse and worse.
It’s pathetic, really…most of the Republican senate is being held hostage, in a very real sense. And the whole world is watching.
But they are going to vote to acquit. I hope Mitt makes one of his speeches.
To a certain extent the Republicans are facing a Prisoner’s Dilemma scenario. If enough vote to convict, they could weaken Trump’s influence and hasten his downfall. If a few vote to convict but not enough, those few will become the targets of the Trump wing who will become ascendant. And if none do, they validate Trump completely and encourage even worse behavior from him - or from the next “Trump” to come along.
Their best collective choice in the long run is to cut out Trumpism by convicting its leader - but as a bunch of malign, conniving backstabbers they can’t ever trust each other to do the right thing, and they can’t risk getting hung out to dry by a betrayal.
Some of them, at this point, may be flat out afraid of being murdered. Possibly along with their families.
Yup.
Whatever they’re afraid of, giving in to either Trump or the Trumpists will only at most delay it, while increasing its changes of happening in the long run. Their only chance is to stand up to him.
He will claim validation and it will encourage even worse behavior if they don’t convict, even if somewhere between 1 and 16 of them vote to convict.
The sane Republicans are thinking, “If I go, you won’t get another one of ME, you get another one of THEM”. So they must vote like madmen to avoid being replaced by a madman. If they could only get together and those who aren’t up for reelection until 2026 convict with just enough from the class of 2024, maybe the fever will break.
However it seems that a great many Senators are not even attending the trial. They are not even present. They made their minds up long ago, and they don’t want to be confused by the facts.
Or, they might have been told that the tapes of them with their mistresses will be revealed. Or their secret gay liaison. Or the proof of their financial crimes.
I suspect there is a great deal of Kompromat that is influencing Republican decision making at the moment.
