Sounds like you’ve answered your own question. I ascribe to Try2B’s viewpoint:
You and/or iiandyiiii are free to claim whatever personal moral code you feel is appropriate, but I don’t share it, and feel no need to abide by it.
If you want the US to go to war with Iran, I’m not concerned about your feelings in the slightest. I’m concerned about your sanity. I’m concerned about the blood on your hands. I’m concerned about your utter unwillingness to learn from the last decade and a half of US foreign policy, and wondering how many people have to fucking die before you figure you figure out that statements like this:
“Yes, two strikes,” he told Margaret Hoover of “Firing Line” when asked if the U.S. could win a war against Iran. “The first strike and the last strike.”
Are fucking insanity.
This doesn’t actually conflict with anything I said. Yes, whether we go to war should be judged based on whether it’s good or bad for the country. Also, if you push for a war that you’re able but unwilling to fight in, then you’re a gutless coward. Those two assertions aren’t in conflict.
“I think you and/or your close friends should go overseas, endure hardship, and risk trauma and death for this big important thing.”
“Do you plan to join us?”
“Well, I’d rather not. I’m capable of it, but I’d rather not. So no.”
Does anyone really find it mysterious why many veterans and active duty service members would find this sentiment cowardly and infuriating?
“Do you plan to join us?” is not a sentiment I hear very often from service members. YMMV, obviously.
Please, by all means, regale this veteran and current military civilian with your vast experience interacting with veterans and service members.
I would never serve on the front lines of any war, whether I believed in it or not. I have no skills or aptitude that would be useful in that situation. It would be a suicidal gesture and it wouldn’t help “my side” at all.
But if I believed the war was right and necessary, I would try to find a way to use my abilities to support the war effort in a way that might actually help.
This is all that I ask, pretty much. If you are American and think young Americans should endure hardship and risk of death for some important reason, then you should contribute. That means joining the military, if you have the relative youth and able body (i.e. “aptitude”) for it, and finding another way to contribute if you do not. And choosing not to is, IMO, extremely cowardly.
Yours is not an uncommon position. Think the phrase is “chicken hawk”.
Yes, it also seems like this to me.
Obligatory: Roy Zimmerman’s “Chickenhawk”.
(For the record: every single person on his “Roll Call” deserved to be sent into Iraq. As an additional layer of armor for our armored vehicles.)
Gutless coward? I think that is going too far. People have to stay and run the country, and besides, how many people are we going to send? Not everyone can or should go.
That said, I am talking as someone against war with Iran. I predict a million civilian deaths, a refugee crisis, and anywhere from economic problems to economic disaster. For what? I don’t think the regime is exactly a bunch of nice guys, but I also don’t see how war makes the world better or how are backs are somehow up against a wall and we have no choice.
I think Trump and his war hawk cronies are basically tilting towards “evil” status. We may stumble into another disaster because easily fooled or religiously fanatic/racist people believe tax cut pay for themselves, or a wall puts an end to migrants, or a long list of other stupid stuff. America has built a Baal out of its own bullshit and is getting ready to make its latest mad sacrifice to it.
You think the country is divided now? Wait until the body bags are on the news every night, the economy goes to shit, people lose their jobs and farms, all because ignorant bible beaters think their religion should be the law, or because rednecks think minorities have no place here. Foreign policy And domestic crisis all at once. Meanwhile, China seems professional and together, relatively. Way to go, America.
You’re entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine. And my position doesn’t conflict with leaving people “to stay and run the country” – most of our population is not young and able-bodied with the capability to serve in the military. And I wouldn’t expect even all of these folks to volunteer necessarily – but if they’re advocating for a war, and willing to risk others (including many of my friends that I served with) but not themselves for that war, then I feel perfectly inclined to call them gutless.
I generally agree with all of this. War with Iran would be colossally foolish and do incredible harm to America, both by killing Americans for nothing and greatly harming our long-term international standing and security.
Any sort of war with Iran wouldn’t be an invasion. There’s absolutely nothing to gain from it. It would take a HUGE number of troops- Iran is over twice the population of Iraq, considerably larger, and the capitol is in the far northern part of the country.
What’s more likely IF there is war with Iran would be air strikes and some kind of naval combat, along with a blockade of some kind.
And… this isn’t the first time we’ve been in this same sort of situation w.r.t. Iran. Ever since 1979, we’ve been more or less on the brink of war. Hell, in 1988 we mounted the largest surface engagement since WWII in Operation Praying Mantis where we sank or severely damaged half of Iran’s navy in one fell swoop, as retaliation for Iranian mines and missiles damaging the USS Samuel B. Roberts and USS Stark.
The Trump Administration is definitely going about this the wrong way by increasing tensions, etc… but make no mistake, the Iranian government is a gang of assholes as well.
But I’ve got a giant support the troops yellow ribbon plastered to the back of my pickup and “Proud to be an American” on Repeat in its CD player.
Now while I may not support extra funding for VA hospitals, one time I did buy a wounded vet a beer in a bar and thanked him for his service.
So while they go out and blow up whatever shit hole country their deployed to show the wrold that you don’t mess with the US, I’ll do my part by chanting USA, USA, USA while I watch the Olympics.
So don’t you tell me who doesn’t support our Troops.
Yeah, but they’re a gang of assholes who actually seem to be in the right on this one.
As you’ve said, we’ve been at odds with Iran for most of my life, and most of that was at least somewhat justified from our point of view. But that’s not the case any longer. We made a deal with Iran to stop their nuclear program, and basically everyone but GOP partisans agrees that Iran was complying with that agreement. Sure, the agreement didn’t fix every problem we have with Iran, but it was a big step forward in improving relations, and could have formed the basis for further development.
But then Trump went and tossed that deal, for no better reason than pandering to his stupid GOP base, who all bought into the politically-motivated line of bullshit that this was the “worst deal ever” signed by “weak Obama”.
So is it any surprise that Iran has basically decided to tell the US to go fuck itself? And I can’t even fault them for it. The US should go fuck itself. They’re the Bad Guy in this latest episode.
Yep. This is what “patriotism” became, at least to some significant extent, in the early and mid aughts. “Patriotism” (not real patriotism, clearly), led by W, Cheney, and Rumsfeld, became easy, inexpensive, sacrifice-free, and entirely superficial. Real patriotism is none of those things.
What other people are pointing out is that you appear to be unwilling to abide by your own moral code as well.
Which moral code of mine does it appear I’m unwilling to abide by?
Let’s make this thread about foreign policy actions and their implications and dial back the negative personalization of commentary. As an example of such, all of this would be no:
ETA - personal morality as well.
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