[QUOTE=Rune]
Turkey has frequently violated the airspace of pretty much all its neighbors. Greece, Cyprus, Armenia, Iran and of course Syria. The world will be a much more dangerous place if we start to shoot down such miniscule transgressions. That was not how it was done even during the Cold War. And I expect Turkey will not like it one bit if their helicopters flying into Armenian or Greek airspace will get downed next time.
[/QUOTE]
Did Turkey violate them while on combat missions on their borders to attack their allies or groups they support? I’m guessing not, but feel free to cite all these violations so we can look at them in perspective wrt the Russians flying such combat missions and then violating Turkey’s airspace. I’m sure they are just alike.
In the CNN article they show the flight path which clearly violates Turkey’s airspace. What do you have saying that they didn’t do this? Were all the other times Russia violated Turkey’s airspace equally made up?
I’m guessing not. I don’t think Turkey fucked up, and I seriously doubt the US or The West™ will be making any heavy concessions to Russia about this. Guess we shall see who is right and who is wrong, and I wouldn’t put it past The West™ caving to the Russians on basically anything at this point.
meh. Do you think not shooting down a plane straying into your territory for a whole 10 seconds is bending over? Are you of the opinion that all aircrafts straying into foreign territory should be shot down? Turkish helicopters over Armenia for instance (Armenian Airspace ‘Violated By Turkish Helicopters’). Would you have supported Russia (which have a large military base in Armenia) shooting down those, or doing it next time?
I’m the one that provided you the cite… I already knew Russia wasn’t cooperating with the US coalition or Turkey’s interventions.
It’s not accidental each time. Russia has flown hundreds if not thousands of sorties with a handful of violations. The expected result is the normal dance of diplomatic protests and threats. Shooting down the plan is a significant escalation.
Sure they would have. Like they did in Afghanistan, the US would have done what they wanted. If Turkey had a problem with that or we accidentally violated their airspace we’d tell them to go suck a lemon. Diplomatically, of course. If Turkey started firing on our aircraft, we’d probably start firing back.
That’s the issue. Turkey doesn’t have the air force to defend itself against Russia. It will rely on NATO (read: The US) for that defense. Essentially, it’s whacked the bear on the nose and ran to the US for protection. Now the US has to worry about an angry bear running at them.
How many times has Russia violated Turkish airspace over the last month or so? The last story I read reported that the plane violated Turkey’s border 10 times in a five minute period. This is in addition to the radio warnings that Turkey issued, which were confirmed by the DoD.
If Turkey is doing similar things to other countries, then Armenia should just suck it up and never complain. Turkey is the most important country in the world, and they’d be perfectly within their rights to build walls 100,000 feet high all around the country to make sure that no hostile warplanes enter their airspace. But, as a NATO member, Turkey has the right to send its warplanes anywhere in the world at any time they please. Especially countries like Armenia, which I can’t even identify on a map so they can’t really be a real country. Maybe Armenia is a city somewhere, and you’re confused? But to answer your question directly, Turkey has special rules that don’t apply to Russia. Is that clear?
Well, now that I’ve answered the question the way you think I was going to, I’ll answer truthfully. If Turkey invades other countries’ airspace, especially with military aircraft, they are rolling the dice.
You’ll note that article points out that the Turkish violation of Armenian airspace occurred just 2 days after another Russian incursion into Turkish airspace. IOW, as almost all commentary agrees, Turkey was telling Russia to quit doing it with that little stunt. So it’s a pretty bad example for your point.
Yeah. And feel free to move the goal posts too. Perhaps specify when it’s acceptable to shoot down planes straying into your airspace.
All the other times, is that the one other? It’s too early to say with certainty, but it probably did stray into Turkish airspace for the 17 secs. Although that bit of territory is in fact contested by Syria (it appears on Syrian maps as Syrian territory). And according to Russia, Turkey has presented no proof and only two warnings, not ten, seems to have given. (Ankara presents no evidence for downing of SU-24)
And here’s the Turkish response when one of their jets was shot down after it strayed into foreign airspace: “A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack,” (Turkey PM Erdogan issues Syria border warning), and the NATO response: “We consider this act to be unacceptable and condemn it in the strongest terms. It is another example of the Syrian authorities’ disregard for international norms, peace and security, and human life.” (NAC Statement on the shooting down of a Turkish aircraft by Syria) Notice how NATO decried the disregard for “international norms, peace and security” which being, the international norm is that you do not shoot down airplanes flying into your airspace for such a short period. Or it was until today. Lets hope it will remain so tomorrow.
[QUOTE=treis]
I’m the one that provided you the cite… I already knew Russia wasn’t cooperating with the US coalition or Turkey’s interventions.
[/QUOTE]
Ah…appreciated. Guess I lost track of where you were coming from on this. Sorry about that. :o
Well, at a certain point warnings aren’t working. I’m not sure I’d have made the choice Turkey did, but then I’m not sure of what the political ramifications they perceived to be in effect for allowing the Russians to fire at groups they are supporting on their borders and the violating their airspace. I really don’t know.
We are in NATO together, so Turkey would have a few more options than simply having to listen to us telling them that. The US has gone out of our way to NOT violate Turkey’s airspace when they requested we don’t do so on combat missions…and we weren’t attacking anyone they supported on their borders (or attacking anyone on their borders, period).
Turkey has a pretty large and capable air force according to this. I seriously doubt the US is going to be worried about the Russians escalating things from this, or that Turkey took a poke at the Russians knowing that they could hide behind NATOs skirts.
Well that would be pretty suicidal considering they just shot down a Russian plane so I doubt they will. Are you not willing to concede the point that the Armenian airspace intrusion was a direct message that Russia ignored rather than a good example of “everybody does it” as you presented it?
oh yeah. And let’s take CNN as the gospel why don’t we. I’m sure they’ve never jumped to conclusions before.
Yes. I know that is what you say. But truth be told it’s a stupid opinion held by people who don’t know how the world works. Aircrafts (and ships, and vehicles) of all kinds of countries, incl. the USA, accidentally and not so accidentally stray into foreign territory all the time. If we suddenly start to take this as a free for all invitation to fire missiles at them, the world will suddenly have become a much more dangerous place.
[QUOTE=Rune]
Yeah. And feel free to move the goal posts too. Perhaps specify when it’s acceptable to shoot down planes straying into your airspace.
[/QUOTE]
Acceptable to whom? It’s ‘acceptable’ to defend your airspace from anyone at any time. The perspective on what is or isn’t ‘acceptable’ is going to depend on who is the violator and who is the violated.
I don’t read or speak Russian, so will take your word for the fact that Russian media is saying that Turkey has presented no proof and it’s all Turkey’s fault.
Well, a couple of key differences. First off, it’s less than clear that the plane was in fact in Syrian airspace. Granted, the Russian article you cited presumably says something similar (sadly, since I don’t speak or read Russian I’m unsure of this, but I’ll take it as a given). Secondly, however, this was a Turkish reconnaissance aircraft, not a combat strike aircraft, and it wasn’t involved in a combat mission. But yeah, other than these things it’s exactly the same thing as this…which means that Russia basically has to suck it up, just like Turkey did.
According to the Turks it was an accident due to bad weather, so of course such an accident can happen any time in the future. Leaving no margin for accidents is just overall a very bad idea.
I don’t know what the rest of your post means? Is your theory that Turkey flew over Armenian airspace on purpose to send a message to Russia? That seems like a rather … creative theory. Here’s another creative theory which is being reported in media you don’t trust en mass: Russia have with the acceptance of Turkey rutinely flown over Turkish territory for a long time for their approach to their Latakia airbase. Only recently did Turkey change their stand on this, recently being after Russia started to go after ISIS. Which we all know, since US special forces have helped uncover documents that proved this, Turkey has been a great ally of ISIS.
I often use Global Firepower in these discussions. Airforce wise, Turkey is about 1/3 Russia’s, probably better equipment. No cake walk for the Russians.
