The NATO position is "the jet went inside the airspace border of a NATO country. (never mind that it probably was trying to bomb an enemy of Turkey and just strayed over the border for a moment while circling around for another pass). Warnings were broadcast (never mind the most likely reason they were ignored is the Russian pilots didn’t hear them, due to their radios not being set to the right channel and/or being too busy to acknowledge any alerts in cockpit if there even were any). Therefore we have to stand by them.
I don’t know about the rest of the dopers, but a bunch of assholes who do not stand for American or Western European values isn’t something to risk ww3 over.
The Russian side is "look, we didn’t stray over the border for more than a few seconds. Even if we did, there is no plausible way the government of Turkey can say they felt threatened - if Russia were planning to attack Turkey, it wouldn’t be from one jet that is in a big turn. "
The Russian side is correct. Can NATO eject Turkey and let Russia get revenge?
Rather rose colored glasses you’re wearing there, aren’t they Vladimir P…Oh wait, we’re not allowed to ‘out’ someone’s IRL name here as that’s against the rules
There are international conventions on flying. This plane didn’t abide by them.
[ul]
[li]The plane went where it wasn’t supposed to go. [/li][li]The pilots didn’t acknowledge repeated attempts to contact them. [/li][li]The plane was a heavily armed warplane.[/li][/ul]
Turkey has every right to defend itself in light of the above.
Also,
WWIII is not imminent. Further, if we were to push to eject Turkey from NATO, do you think any country would ever trust us to sign a treaty again? Also Turkey is strategic to NATO both for bases & flyover rights. Do you realize how much harder it would be for the US to launch an offensive w/o Turkey’s support?
Either the pilots were ordered by their commanders to ‘tickle the tiger’s tail’ or they screwed up. It doesn’t matter whether accidental or intentional, those pilots won’t do it again.
I’d like to hear what a third party nato E-3 sentry recorded, if thats available. That Russian Jet was either on a spy mission, or a freedom of navigation mission. I can’t see the turkish airforce, spending how much time, issuing warnings, and then kicking it up to the PM to authorize the shoot down, unless the plane was directly inside turkish airspace.
The Russians should be monitoring guard channel at least. We are not getting the full story. I for one, find it interesting, that the Russians would have a CSAR mission up that quickly.
The Russian plane was attacking an anti-Assad Turkmen militia, a friend of Turkey. Russia and Turkey are on different sides in this war, even if they are both against ISIS.
Russia is not a great poster child for good behavior by pilots, at the same time Turkey is being very duplicitous with their supposed NATO allies re their dealings with ISIS and are allowing ISIS virtually free reign in certain areas. The Turks are not to be trusted.
The whole point of NATO was to act in opposition to the USSR and the Warsaw Pact. Ejecting Turkey and favoring Russia over this would, IMHO, basically destroy any credibility NATO has as a mutual defense group.
I don’t think they are lying. Neither they nor the Turks are telling the whole truth.
The VVSR has made incursions into Turkish airspace and has tested Air Defences and even locked on to TuAF F-16’s a couple of times. I just don’t think this was one of them. Most likely it was a strike aircraft which got in by mistake and the Turks took the opportunity to shoot down a plane with no real A2A capability which was attacking their ethnic cousins.
If it has been a real test, then there would have been a squadron of Su-30’s in support. They have those in theatre as well.
Now all strike sorties will be escorted. Expect more shootdowns soon.
Given that it was Turkey that pretty much ended the Cuban Missile Crisis over its own objections (by agreeing to have nuclear missiles pulled out, IIRC), I don’t see Turkey being tossed out of NATO - at least, not if USA has anything to say about it.
