What’s your point?
I’m going to assume that this was an attempt at humor, but given the level of tension and hostility in this thread, I will point out that it was a very ill-considered effort.
[ /Modding ]
Yeah sorry about that. this thread got really long really quick. Normally, you don’t need to log on every single day to keep up with a thread but this is really going quick.
Smilie when you say that, pardner…
Sorry I’m trying to catch up. I wasn’t trying to revive the Lebanon issue, I was criticizing a poster’s method of argument. I’ll read through the thread.
I must have misread the link provided by Finn Again. I thought that Israel was permitted to act in international waters (in the case of obvious blockade runners) but I didn’t read the part that said that everyone had to throw up their hands when Israel told them to. If Turkey sends warships to escort the next flotilla, do the warships have to obey and abide by Israel’s blockade? I think the link only means that Israel isn’t breaking the rules of war by attacking blockade runners in international water.
Yes:
[ul]
[li]They had nothing to gain by instigating a riot, when boarding a peaceful ship would get them what they wanted without casualties.[/li][li]They had boarded the other boats and made no attempt to instigate any form of armed resistence.[/li][li]They had not done anything to suggest a lack of respect for the authority of the Geneva Convention or their rules of engagement, while the flotilla was currently engaged in an attempt to break a legitimate blockade.[/li][/ul]
You’re the one making extraordinary claims, you provide the proof.
This claim has no basis in reality. We’re not talking about some rare event that nobody has gotten around to banning, it’s a legal right explicitly and deliberately granted by the Geneva Convention.
Oh, I dunno. They might have placed some reliance on Turkey. Its possible, I suppose, that Turkey took an entirely lackadaisical approach to the whole subject of what went on board that ship, loading in their waters, bound for Israel.
“What’s this? Oh, sewing machine parts! (wink wink). Go right ahead…”
Don’t think thats very likely, myself, tend to think the Israelis pretty much knew that there were no weapons aboard, and that the shipment was pretty much (you should forgive the expression) kosher. In that it did, in fact, consist of non-military aid, “humanitarian”.
Have you any reason to believe otherwise, beyond the intuition that supports your “had ‘guilty’ written in large, bold letters all over them…” surmise?
I think Finn has answered this one several times already, but the short answer is yes…several attempts were made, including a request that the entire flotilla stop at an Israeli port for inspection. The Israeli’s didn’t simply sit around saying nothing until they fleet was in range so they could pounce on it.
Since the ships had already refused to comply with the Israeli orders and warnings, maybe you could give your thoughts on what you think Israel should have done?
Pretty much, though again I’m unsure what Israel could have done that wouldn’t have been a negative for them. They were basically in a no-win situation. They could continue to send requests to the ships to heave to and comply or head to a port, which were already being ignored and would have continued to make them look ineffective. Or, they could have let the ships sail on to the port, which would have broken the blockade and made them look ineffective. Or they could have attempted a daylight boarding, which probably would have worked out the same way, since it’s fairly clear that these guys were trying to provoke such an incident (whether it was day light or not), but might have resulted in more casualties on both sides.
Which of these scenarios do you perceive would have been a win for the Israeli’s?? They were fucked any way they turned. It is similar to a hostage crisis where the hostage takers are killing a hostage every 5 minutes unless you comply with their demands. If you go in and try and free the hostages, some will die and you’ll get blamed. If you don’t do anything, some will die and you’ll be blamed. If you cave into their demands then you will be crucified for caving into their demands, especially if people have already been killed. You are, to be blunt, fucked no matter what you do.
Because at night you might be able to use the element of surprise and superior military gear and (slim chance) cow the opposition without a fight. It worked well on all but one ship after all, right? The thing is, the Israeli’s didn’t have hindsight and Monday morning quarterback skills to know what was going to happen, or what exactly was on board, or what exactly they were facing, or how things would turn out. Instead, they actually had to make a call and try to execute a plan without the benefit of our 'doper godlike ability to judge after the fact. And there was little or nothing they could have done that would have been right in the minds of many of the people in this thread. Any action they could actually take (no including caving in, which wasn’t really an option) would have condemned them in the eyes of The World™ in general, and a large percentage of this message board in particular. I’m sure it saddened the Israeli’s to think that many 'dopers would disapprove of their actions, that they were no the less able to push on through with great fortitude anyway.
Well, they did everything save direct firing on the ships and nothing seemed to be working, so I guess they COULD have fired into the ships to get them to heave too. I’m unsure how this would have promoted a more positive outcome, however. I can’t really think of anything they could have done differently to get those ships to stop that they didn’t try, but if you have a thought on it I’m all ears.
-XT
That’s probably true, but as a rule, governments don’t operate on the “trust me” principle. When I go to the airport, I have to go through the metal detector, even if I promise I don’t have a gun or bomb. Israel’s still going to want to inspect the cargo, even if the people on the boats pinky swear they don’t have anything they’re not supposed to.
I’m just saying that the stakes seem to getting higher and higher.
The US is getting painted into a corner because we cannot let the whole world dogpile on Israel despite the fact that Israel seems to be a bit contemptuous of the US right now.
I think you are reading too much into Finn Again’s link. I think Finn’s link proves taht Israel didn’t break international law when it did what it did but I don’t think Israel is exercising police power, they are exercising military power.
If they had nothing to hide on the ships, why not heave to and allow the inspection? As for Turkey, I would certainly trust them, assuming that Turkey officially inspected all the cargo and would offer assurances that no contraband was loaded at any time onto those ships. Do you have any evidence that Turkey was ready to offer official and iron clad assurances that there was no contraband on those ships and that they had kept the ships under surveillance from the time they left port until they were picked up by Israeli surveillance?
And you presume that your assertion here is far fetched because…? Or that no cargo could have been transshipped after leaving port why, exactly?
And what do you base this incredible assertion on?? Just pulling this from your nether regions, or do you have some basis to think that the Israeli’s actually knew there was no weapons on board, and…what?
Well, I have the fact that the ships were ACTING like they were guilty. They refused to be inspected, refused to heave to, and continued on even after warning shots were fired across their bows. Granted, none of this is definitive proof, but it SEEMS to be at least a bit fishy, wouldn’t you say?
So, what have YOU got, beyond your own intuition that these folks were as pure as the driven snow and had ‘angel’ written large, in bold letters all over them, to give you back your own hyperbole?
-XT
I think it might be because the other ships only had supplies and crew and maybe a handful of activists/aid workers. The Maru had all the people (something like 600 people.
There is a sh*tstorm coming and firing the defense minister isn’t going to stop it.
You misunderstood my point. I wasn’t saying they were exercising ‘police power’, I’m saying they exercised lawful authority.
-XT
Hrmm, I thought I was being funny.
You must be a Nazi 
Oh, I dunno. How about this?
Stop the blockade, go back to 1967 borders, resolve the refugee problem.
Don’t start in the first place.
Someone mentioned taking out their propellors and rudder.
You gotta have some serious liability insurance for that sort of thing.