Turkish flagged vessel attack [What if?--becomes What now?]

[Alessan]

@PrettyVacant

Yes, including the right to defend itself.

But this isn’t about me. It’s about you defending the indefesible. Yet again.

What exactly wouldn’t you defend ?

What, you want me to start imagining some examples?

[Alessan]

Anyway, here’sa description of the events on the ship. The translation is poor and kind of rushed, but the writer is Ron Ben-Yishai, one of Israel’s most respected journalists, who was present at the raid. Google him if you want.

Key quotes:

Navy commandoes slid down to the vessel one by one, yet then the unexpected occurred: The passengers that awaited them on the deck pulled out bats, clubs, and slingshots with glass marbles, assaulting each soldier as he disembarked. The fighters were nabbed one by one and were beaten up badly, yet they attempted to fight back.

However, to their misfortune, they were only equipped with paintball rifles used to disperse minor protests, such as the ones held in Bilin. The paintballs obviously made no impression on the activists, who kept on beating the troops up and even attempted to wrest away their weapons.

One soldier who came to the aid of a comrade was captured by the rioters and sustained severe blows. The commandoes were equipped with handguns but were told they should only use them in the face of life-threatening situations. When they came down from the chopper, they kept on shouting to each other “don’t shoot, don’t shoot,” even though they sustained numerous blows.

The Navy commandoes were prepared to mostly encounter political activists seeking to hold a protest, rather than trained street fighters. The soldiers were told they were to verbally convince activists who offer resistance to give up, and only then use paintballs. They were permitted to use their handguns only under extreme circumstances.

…

The forces hurled stun grenades, yet the rioters on the top deck, whose number swelled up to 30 by that time, kept on beating up about 30 commandoes who kept gliding their way one by one from the helicopter. At one point, the attackers nabbed one commando, wrested away his handgun, and threw him down from the top deck to the lower deck, 30 feet below. The soldier sustained a serious head wound and lost his consciousness.

Only after this injury did Flotilla 13 troops ask for permission to use live fire. The commander approved it: You can go ahead and fire. The soldiers pulled out their handguns and started shooting at the rioters’ legs, a move that ultimately neutralized them. Meanwhile, the rioters started to fire back at the commandoes.

“I saw the tip of a rifle sticking out of the stairwell,” one commando said. “He fired at us and we fired back. We didn’t see if we hit him. We looked for him later but couldn’t find him.” Two soldiers sustained gunshot wounds to their knee and stomach after rioters apparently fired at them using guns wrested away from troops.

During the commotion, another commando was stabbed with a knife. In a later search aboard the Marmara, soldiers found caches of bats, clubs, knives, and slingshots used by the rioters ahead of the IDF takeover. It appeared the activists were well prepared for a fight.

Feel free to see any facts conflicting with your preconceptions as lies.

[PrettyVacant]

How many guns were there on the videos?
How many knives?
How many of these weapons were recovered from the dead by the Israeli heroes?
How many Israeli heroes were stabbed or shot?
You’re worse than pathetic because you defend the slaughter of innocents.

[ivan_astikov]

The Navy commandoes were prepared to mostly encounter political activists seeking to hold a protest, rather than trained street fighters.

Yes, those “trained street fighters” are an absolute menace, and need shooting on sight.

[amanset]

Just out of interest, how exactly were the “activists” supposed to react when boarded by armed soldiers in international waters?

That article is just amazing:

Navy commandoes slid down to the vessel one by one, yet then the unexpected occurred: The passengers that awaited them on the deck pulled out bats, clubs, and slingshots with glass marbles, assaulting each soldier as he disembarked.

How the bloody hell was that unexpected? THEY WERE ARMED SOLDIERS BOARDING A SHIP IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS. Words fail me. Utterly, utterly fail me.

[Alessan]

I think I’ll put this conversation on hold until the grownups arrive to talk.

[Captain_Amazing]

@amanset

Just out of interest, how exactly were the “activists” supposed to react when boarded by armed soldiers in international waters?

Surrender and let themselves be taken to Ashdod for cargo inspection, like the people on the other ships?

[amanset]

@Captain_Amazing

Surrender and let themselves be taken to Ashdod for cargo inspection, like the people on the other ships?

Why should they surrender? What exactly had they done wrong? On what authority were they boarded? Do you think they honestly believed they would be treated fairly? Do you believe that everyone should always surrender and never fight back?

[amanset]

@Alessan

I think I’ll put this conversation on hold until the grownups arrive to talk.

I’m pretty sure the moderators frown on these sort of statements in Great Debates.

[PrettyVacant]

@amanset

That article is just amazing:

Don’t you know he’s “one of Israel’s most respected journalists”!!

@Alessan

I think I’ll put this conversation on hold until the grownups arrive to talk.

Again: Worse than pathetic. Are you going to answer; what wouldn’t you defend - anything that’s ever happened whilst you’ve been on these boards, anything during that time?

[Alessan]

@amanset

I’m pretty sure the moderators frown on these sort of statements in Great Debates.

If they do then I apologize. If they don’t then I don’t.

[Honesty]

@Alessan

The justification is that Israel wants to prevent weapons from arriving at Gaza. That’s the whole point of the naval blockade; that’s why the Israeli government offered to have the ships dock in Israel, examine the cargo and then ship all real humanitarian supplies to the Strip. If Israel allowed an unsupervised open trade route to Gaza, it’s likely that Iran would quickly equip Hamas with as many guns and missiles as they could, leading to who knows how many Israeli deaths. The Israeli government can’t allow that.

Now, seeing as Israel felt it *had *to stop the ships, it would be in its best interests - if only from a PR standpoint - to do it without any loss of life. After all, any dead civilian is bad PR for Israel and good PR for the Palestinians. Hence a commando takeover instead of just torpedoing the ships.

Does anyone think that the ship contained weapons or material that could be used as weapons? I admittedly don’t know much about the situation but I don’t understand why humanatarian aid would be met with such force. I mean, really, if the American Red Cross sailed into waters, is the IDF going to hijack that like that too?

[Alessan]

@PrettyVacant

Again: Worse than pathetic. Are you going to answer; what wouldn’t you defend - anything that’s ever happened whilst you’ve been on these boards, anything during that time?

Give me some examples.

But first condemn - unequivocally - some Palestinian actions. Just to show good faith.

[PrettyVacant]

What the hell are you talking about now?

This was piracy and/or terrorism in international waters that resulted in the death of at least 10 innocent people. You’re defending that, and you want someone to show you “good faith”.

You’re just a rabid extremist with no moral compass or sense of perspective or decency.

[ivan_astikov]

@Alessan

I think I’ll put this conversation on hold until the grownups arrive to talk.

The grown-ups are here. Now if you want to let go of Mother Israel’s skirt, we can have that chat you are so desperate for.

[Alessan]

@Honesty

Does anyone think that the ship contained weapons or material that could be used as weapons? I admittedly don’t know much about the situation but I don’t understand why humanatarian aid would be met with such force. I mean, really, if the American Red Cross sailed into waters, is the IDF going to hijack that like that too?

As I said before, the purpose of the flotilla was to break the blockade on Gaza. The ships today in all likelihood carried no weapons; however, once the precedent is set and the blockade is broken, the next flotilla could carry shiploads of weapons with impunity.

The fact of the matter is that the Israeli government cares more about the lives of its citizens and its soldiers than it does for international relations and international law. One of the perils of living in our kind of democracy - the rest of the world doesn’t get a vote.

(And yes, that can count as criticism of Israel, for those keeping score at home).

[Malthus]

@amanset

Why should they surrender? What exactly had they done wrong? On what authority were they boarded? Do you think they honestly believed they would be treated fairly? Do you believe that everyone should always surrender and never fight back?

Certainly, they may “fight back”. But there is a bit of cognitive dissonance going on here.

Either the protesters are engaged in a bit of Gandhi-esque civil disobedience, or they are simply participants in the middle east conflict.

If they are engaged in Gandhi-like civil disobedience tactics, then they ought to use non-violent resistance. The use of non-violence is what gives them moral authority (no matter what anyone thinks of the object of their project).

OTOH, if they use violence, they lack moral authority - they are in no better position than any other combatant. Only, they are worse armed.

What they then appear to be doing, is deliberately inciting violence to score a political point - knowing that some folks will certainly die if they pull knives on troops. In short, the opposite of Gandhi’s tactics.

[Alessan]

@PrettyVacant

What the hell are you talking about now?

This was piracy and/or terrorism in international waters that resulted in the death of at least 10 innocent people. You’re defending that, and you want someone to show you “good faith”.

You’re just a rabid extremist with no moral compass or sense of perspective or decency.

Now I’m pretty sure the Mods don’t approve of that.

(And yeah, I saw the “scum” line. Too slow!)

[Honesty]

@Lantern

Except that Israel’s policiesabout what to allow and not to allow are completely arbitrary and shrouded in secrecy. It’s reasonable to interpret the blockade as an attempt to collectively punish the Gaza civilian population for supporting Hamas. In any event Hamas is apparently managing to smuggle plenty of weapons through its tunnels. The primary effect of the blockade seems to be to increase civilian suffering and perversely make the population even more dependent on Hamas.

We don’t know exactly what happened in this particular incident but since I don’t consider the blockade legitimate in the first place, I think Israel bears the responsibility for any deaths caused by enforcing it.

The blockade, from that link, does seem arbitrary. The thrust of a blockade should be to prevent weapons not spices and foodstuffs. What’s next? Medicine? Bandages?

[Captain_Amazing]

@amanset

Why should they surrender? What exactly had they done wrong? On what authority were they boarded? Do you think they honestly believed they would be treated fairly? Do you believe that everyone should always surrender and never fight back?

They should surrender because they were being boarded by armed commandos, and they knew that armed resistance would lead to bloodshed, which it did, and because, if they didn’t have forbidden weapons among their supplies, the supplies would have gotten to Gaza after being inspected in Ashdod.

Considering that the whole point of this convoy was to try to break the blockade of Gaza, an action, which, if it was successful, would lead to the flow of weapons to Gaza increasing and allow groups like Hamas to operate more successfully, you’ll excuse me if I don’t have more sympathy for the goddamned bastards.