All on their own without any other input whatsoever? That seems…unlikely.
Ah, so, if the English had forced all the Irish to flee the British Isles and tried to kill the one’s who didn’t flee, those people would later be able to pick a place they could call home anywhere they had a historical connection to and all be resettled there, and bollocks to the neighbours?
Sounds like a great plan.
So either the iron bar incident was filmed before the report that 2 were dead was filmed.
or
the commando’s falling out the sky happened after the report that 2 were dead
either way in that report there were 2 dead and white flags were raised. The commando’s went on to kill 7 more after the report or during the report when white flags were raised.
Same scenario when the Palestinians were seen on film raising white flags and walking towards the IDF in Gaza as instructed then being shot dead.
Same as the massacre of the 40 odd Samouni family who were told to group in that house by the IDF, white flags raised then they went in and shot them dead.
It has made me quite sick watching TV today to watch Israeli’s in Tel Aviv celebrating this massacre. Flying their flags from the cars and motorbikes as they scream in support of their government’s actions.
Even as one American peace activist also lays dead in a coffin in Ankara.
Even as one 21 year old American girl student lies in a West Bank hospital with her eye gouged out.
Even as the MV Rachel Corrie is now being threatened.
I’m assuming after me asking yesterday that no US press were aboard the flotilla even though this was obviously going to be a huge story.
No reports from US reporters? No evidence?
Now I get why the US and Israel hate Al Jazeera.
Then why did you bother to post her statement? :rolleyes:
Because someone brought up the same argument, and it wouldn’t do to have the argument labeled as some sort of horribly off base outlier* when major American politicians are voicing it. Do you understand now?
*not that anyone would do that.
You asked who made the decision, and that’s who made the decision. Other people advocated it, sure. I have no doubt the advocates have been documented in many books, but I’m not that familiar with the Zionist movement.
I didn’t say it was a great plan. I’ve said in the past that if it were proposed today I would most likely oppose it because of the suffering it caused for the people who were already living there. That’s the same reason I’m against getting rid of Israel today. And for that matter, ancient holy myths are not a good basis for creating a country. But you asked why the country was created. Here’s the answer: around 5.8 million Jews were slaughtered over the preceeding decade, which (if memory serves) was close to half the worldwide population of Jews. Nazi Germany had an expressed goal of wiping out an ethnic/religious group of millions of people, and using modern industrialized methods they came astonishingly close to doing it. And for much of that time the world didn’t pay much attention. Whether or not creating Israel was the right solution it’s not that hard to understand why some British diplomats, some Jews, and others felt it was a good idea. And with that said, we should probably drop the subject here before it becomes yet another hijack.
They did. And they started the process of buying additional land near where other Jews already lived in the Holy Land, and turning the land into something other than worthless dust and dirt.
You mean granted the privilege of buying land like non-Jews? Yeah, that seems extreme. They probably should have been kept separate in ghettos of their own, right?
As to why they were ‘granted’ the ‘privelige’(sic) of forming their own nation, the answer is pretty complex, and that you have to ask it is a pretty fair indication that you really shouldn’t be speaking on this subject. The short story, however, is that at the turn of the the last century (and even a bit before) Jews started migrating back to the Holy Land. They did this by purchasing land considered to be pretty worthless, invested the capital and blood, sweat and tears into making it not so worthless. This, of course, caused those who sold the land to think ‘Damn Jews! They ripped us off of our good land!’ Obviously penis ensued. Fast forward to WWI. Both the Jews and natives supported (sort of) the Brits in their war with the Ottoman Turks. After the war both groups were promised semi-autonomy of their area from the British, who now controlled the entire Trans-Jordan region (which encompassed a huge area, including Palestine and Jordan).
However, the native (non-Jewish) population wanted the whole shootin’ match for themselves and began doing what people have done since time out of mind…persecuting Jews and trying to take from them what they thought was rightfully theirs. The Brits caved and no one got even semi-independence. There was a lot of violence and strife. Eventually the Jews in the region got sick of it and gasp started to hit back and embarked on terrorism of their own (I know…wtf is the world coming too when Jews who should be properly cowed actually fight BACK?? :eek:).
Fast forward again to the 30’s, when things in mainland Europe (especially in Germany) started to go pair shaped for the Jews. Immigration to the Holy Land increased as Jews tried (unsuccessfully in many cases) to get out. Eventually there was no escape, so those who stayed (or were forced back) were pretty much fucked. Going over to the Holy Land, the violence between the native non-Jews and the native and immigrant Jews was heating up as well, with increasingly violent acts from both sides…and also against the Brits.
Fast forward to after WWII. While the various allied powers were dividing up the rest of the world into East/West camps, it was also decided in the late 40’s to divide up the Brits Trans-Jordan region into several statelets. These would include an autonomous Palestine and an autonomous Israel, since both had defacto autonomy as it was and were simply going to continue fighting it out unless someone did something. The UN drafted a resolution dividing the region into two sovereign nations. The Palestinian’s, not content with half a burrito, decided to play for the whole thing. The Israeli’s, content with the agreement, were forced to fight for their lives since every neighbor jumped in on the Palestinian’s ‘side’ (snort…as if, having won, they were going to give the Palestinian’s the territory :dubious:).
The rest is pretty much history. And this is the SHORT version (which glosses over tons of stuff).
-XT
Hey, you caught me making a speling misteak. Whoop di doo!
I have a less than fanatical interest in ME affairs, but to suggest I shouldn’t be commenting on the topic says more about you than it says about me.
If Hamas/Gaza shall unleash the full fury of her military force, how many armored divisions is she likely to use?
I don’t get you, Luci. You’re not liked these other clowns - you’re a smart, reasonable guy. Just because Hamas isn’t a truly existential threat, just because we’re much stronger then they are, that doesn’t mean we can’t protect ourselves from them. Every life taken by a Hamas rocket is still a human life, one whose loss could have been prevented. Does my government - any govenrment - not have an obligation to protect the lives of each and every one of its citizens, no matter who it is who is threatening them?
So no, Hamas won’t have any armored divisions. If they were smart, they’d realize that and stop fighting us; they aren’t, though, so we have to keep fighting back.
Hamas I am sure are sitting back now taking a back seat in all of this.
It’s the rest of the outraged world you need to be concerned with.
Hamas is your least concern.
Your actions have united the Arab League. They said clearly they will ‘actively’ break your blockade.
I very much doubt the Arab League would be willing to risk war for the Palestinians - too much to lose, and too little to gain. Besides, they’ve never cared enough to do so before, so why start now? All Arab nations are really good at is talk.
You also seemed assured that you’ll beat us this time, unlike every time you’ve tried before. I find that assurance somewhat baseless.
Wow, even Alessan is getting all militant. Must be a sign of the times.
I’m gonna fucking laminate this! Priceless.
Seriously, did your head make a “ding!” sound when this thought went through it?
Doesn’t this go both ways though. Don’t the Palestinians have a right to defend themselves against a 40 year military occupation, the slow-motion ethnic cleansing of the 22% of historic Palestine the Palestinians were ethnically cleansed into, and so on? It’s Israel who are the aggressors here, they’re the ones carrying out the occupation of Palestinian lands/blockade of Gaza/building illegal settlements and so on. In terms of civilian deaths there’s never been a period since 1948 when Israeli deaths have come remotely close to the number of Palestinian deaths. So don’t Palestinians have a right to defend themselves too, or does the right of defence only apply to aggressors?
Public opinion decides how many allies you have, and how many enemies you have. If the public opinion of Israel gets anymore antagonistic (or if, God forbid, the US withdraws support), that will spell the end of Israel. Unless you think Israel could hold it’s own against the entire world.
While I am terrified at the thought of this turning into The Starvation Debate, Pt. II, I don’t think you can say a group is being ethnically cleansed if their population is increasing and they are living longer. That’s apart from describing the original creation of the country as ethnic cleansing in the first place. Israel’s actions are inhumane and I don’t want to downplay that. But while they are suffering, these people are not being ethnically cleansed or starved to death. It doesn’t totally invalidate your point because both sides have to change, but I don’t think the facts support this language and the inaccurate language doesn’t help your argument.
How does launching rockets into Israel protect the Palestinians?
How often have you caught the people firing the rockets into Israel? How do you know that it is Hamas authorised terrorists every time?
I caught you adding stuff to the quote box that I didn’t write as well, i.e. “< snips very pro-jew interpretation of ME history >”. Since you don’t seem to know much of anything about the subject, I’m curious as to on what basis you assert the quoted part.
And FTR, since I was quoting what you actually wrote, putting in the (sic) simply means I’m quoting you as you wrote it. I wasn’t trying to bust your chops about spelling, though if you want to take it that way it’s fine. It wasn’t how you wrote what you wrote, it was the content I was responding to. I noticed that this was the only thing you responded to of what I wrote, which I find fairly amusing.
Oh, you are free to comment all you like. If you want to comment on a subject you are basically clueless about, that’s fine. Knock yourself out.
-XT
What about all the Palestinians who get kicked out of their houses/off their land to make way for Israeli settlers? If you’re removing people of one ethnic group who have lived on an area of land for generations and allow people of one ethnic group to move in, that’s not ethnic cleansing? Ethnic cleansing has to happen at 1948 speed/numbers for it to be called ethnic cleansing? Scroll halfway down this page to “FACING A CROWD” and tell me this isn’t ethnic cleansing. You can come up with a euphemism like the Israelis do to describe this, like “population transfer” or “transfer” but it’s only a euphemism, isn’t it?
http://blogs.wsj.com/photojournal/2010/05/14/pictures-of-the-week-may-9-–-may-14/?mod=wsj_india_main