Turkish flagged vessel attack [What if?--becomes What now?]

Oh, stow it. The notion that “the Israelis were attacked first” depends on the idea that boarding someone else’s ship against their will in international waters far from anybody’s territorial waters is somehow not an attack.

If Israel weren’t a nation, that would be an act of piracy, and those on board ship would have every right to resist. Since Israel has no jurisdiction in the middle of the Med, the right to resist - and resistance is what it is - is still there. And while IANAL and especially am no expert on international maritime law, I don’t see how Israel’s existence as a nation gets their military off the hook for piracy.

Not slighting your expertise or interpretation, but I cannot help but feel this is a douchetarded feature. Like, says who? A nation might impose a blockade upon a helpless but unfriendly neighbor, so long as they raise a pinky finger and swear that if is not intended to punish the civilian population? So long as they promise to play nice, its legal?

How would one judge that from without? Wouldn’t it be the type of goods that are prohibited, how many a truly military, like C4, and how many are certainly civilian comforts, like wheel chairs and coriander? Is it impossible that a prohibition list can go too far, can be come so burdensome to a suffering civilian population that the blockade becomes illegal?

Or is the self-attested motives sufficient to render anything legal?

“Say there, you! Its illegal to sneak into that house and steal their jewelry.”

“Oh, I won’t keep it, its only illegal if I keep it. I’m just going to take it, show it to my mom, and bring it right back!”

“Well, in that case, nevermind. Carry on…”

End the siege on Israel

Does Israel want to live in peace with their Palestinian neighbors? Does it want to be an Albatross around America’s neck?
It’s time to get off the dime and take some clarifying action. Sitting on the situation like this is harming the US, and it’s harming Israel.

It’s technically within the Geneva conventions in that Israel had a declared blockade in force and the boarded ships were self-declared blockade runners. Of course, it’s technically within the Geneva conventions to declare war on a nation and then drop bombs on it, as well. The Geneva conventions aren’t any kind of bastion of morality: they’re a set of agreed-upon niceties to make the disgusting business of armed conflict slightly less awful.

A quibble about spin, perhaps even unintentional spin. Since the members of the flotilla had declared their opinion that the blockade was illegal, they most likely considered themselves perfectly legitimate carriers. What they declared themselves was a humanitarian mission.

If they were carrying machine guns, rocket parts and warheads, they would most assuredly be blockade runners.

You are welcome to cite anywhere in the Sam Remo Manual where it defines blockade runners as those with machine guns and ordinance rather than those who declare their intention to violate a blockade. Or where it says that those who are running a blockade don’t count if they refuse to recognize the blockade.

Certainly you can cite that since you’re against spin, and such.

Oh! If you don’t recognize something, it isn’t illegal? I’m sorry I doubted you, that makes PERFECT sense! Why, that new computer I can’t afford? I’ll just steal it and declare that I don’t recognize the laws against theft. That guy who always cuts me at the store? I’ll just murder him and declare that I don’t recognize the laws against murder, if that’s alright with you. Oh, and I think I’ll start breaking board rules all over the place since I can choose to not recognize them, and if I get banned I can just make a new account… I don’t recognize the rule against that, either.

Thanks, elucidator! You made my life so much simpler.

She was on a flotilla that set out with the specific purpose of running a legitimate blockade, established to deny supplies to an organisation that attacks Israel with rockets at every opportunity.

Aren’t we talking about literal treason, here?

Israel doesn’t have any hatred. She wants to ensure the existence of her country. When Palestinians indoctrinate their young ones that Israelites are nothing more than animals, animals to be despised, that’s the teaching of hatred.

As to the legality of the intervention of the flotilla, I’ll let an expert speak:

By Alan Dershowitz Wednesday, June 2nd 2010, 4:00 AM
www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2010/06/02/2010-06-02_israel_obeyed_international_law_legally_the_gaza_flotilla_conflict_is_an_openand.html#ixzz0pnmBy88E

nudge, nudge ;):wink:
There you go!

Your pardon if I do not believe that Israel is perfect enough to moved beyond hatred.

Why, then, do we have such rules? Is it not an expression of our civilization, that we are not savages, that we do not visit misery upon the helpless? Do we ferret out technicalities to drape over our vicious behavior with sanctimonious piety?

If you are going to loudly proclaim your right to self-defense as your justification, how does that justify tormenting civilians? But no! No, that’s just an unfortunate side effect, its not the real purpose, the real purpose is to protect ourselves from weaponry. Why, if we can claim that, at whatever abstraction, however theoretical, well, then we are justified in the most vicious behavior, we have a legal technicality! Its right here, in section 111-A, subset vi!

What an enormous comfort that must be for you, to know that your base and low efforts to punish civilians for their refusal to love you are quite perfectly legal! Surely, you are to be applauded for your punctilious observance of the letter of the law, even as your wipe your ass on its purpose.

And you wonder why they hate you.

What is the operative proportion, if one may ask? If this blockade is ninety-nine percent for the punishment of the weak, and you can squeeze out one percent of justification by self-defense, are you therefore innocent? Why, they might very well mount those wheel chairs and strap vests of coriander and chamomile, roll across the desert to attack! Heaven only knows what evil purposes they have in mind for food and medicine!

I was not aware that Israel had become a nation of atheistic, cynical lawyers. This must be a proud moment. How eagerly you must look forward to standing before the Throne, and when He asks what have you done to His children, you can offer Him Article Four, Subsection II, and bask in His approval for your clever semantic distinctions.

I would that I believed, so that I might look forward to the day.

Oh, and while we’re about it, what does “demilitarized” mean, exactly?

Well, you might want to contact an actual lawyer, then.

Israel is a nation, this means that if it arrests and detains a person*, it is not engaged in kidnapping; if it taxes a person*, it is not engaged in theft; if it enforces a blockade*, it is not engaged in piracy.

Nations do have different rights and obligations than individuals or even corporations and pretending that they do not is simply wishful thinking and poor argumentation.

  • (Following appropriate rules of law, of course.)

Well elucinator, since you’re demanding an answer to “demilitarized”, I demand an answer to my question above.

Well, yes, of course! After all, we are civilized men! Savages don’t have lawyers!

You’ll need to be more specific, I didn’t really notice a question so much as an outpouring of contempt for my opinion.

No contempt at all, I’m trying to understand. I just want to know–Why CAN’T I do any of the things I described? That’s exactly what the blockade runners did, and you support them.

I infer from your comment that you are proving my point, since you have jumped to a conclusion that I have opinions about the event when I have not expressed any such opinion.
[/QUOTE]

If you think both sides are placing “spin” on the story then yes I would assume that you think i.e. your opinion is that both sides aren’t merely telling what happened as people that actually witnessed the event. We do know that the Israeli govt is spinning the event based upon their behavior i.e. the confiscating of all video and photos, doctoring auidio, and providing edited clips of information to support the narrative that they want to put out. I don’t see where the activists are doing this so I again ask you what supports your assertion of “spin” by both parties?

Interesting, too, as it wasn’t any Doper who made the proposal that he’s challenging. But he’s now referenced it, what, a half dozen times? A dozen?

Also interesting is that he’d have no truck with such a plan (whatever it was exactly) because it would leave the Palestinians at the mercy of the Israelis. And that’s just not the way peace can be won! Except for Israel. Israel should let itself be attacked as often as Hamas wants. And all the while we can claim that Israel must be the “first” to accept an attack and not respond (while we ignore all those other times it’s done just that) and that Israel must finally offer peace even in the face of violence (and ignore all those other times it did just that, too). Maybe Netanyahu should take a page out of Elucidator’s book and declare himself a Friend of Palestine.

After all, as Elucidator has told us, his call for Israel to allow endless war against itI is not just in the service of peace, it’s made because he is a friend of Israel. Odd, of course, that once you strip the rhetoric away, the actions he’s calling for amount to a perpetual war against Israel, with no defense, until groups like Hamas get bored of it. But he would never ask the Palestinians to disarm, because that would mean they were defenseless and what kind of a monster do you take him for?
Truly, nations are lucky to have such friends.

Just so he lets it go, I’ll try to define demilitarized:

No army. That’s it. It’s that simple. And don’t start with that “Well what about police” nonsense. Police =/= army, therefore there is a police force.

Happy now? Because it’s your turn.