Like I said, my knowledge of rap is very limited. I’m into musical theatre. It’s odd, considering the rappers I have met through work.
I’m heard some of M&M (I’m glad someone else thinks of him this way), and I don’t like the lyrics. But that’s just me. I don’t consider him talented and I don’t think he’ll last.
YMMV, and so may your opinion. I have no problem with it.
The Roots, huh? I’ll have to check them out. I’m always looking for new bands to listen to…
Ever listen to The Jungle Brothers? I have their latest album, V.I.P. ,and it’s really good, clean rap. Real instruments are used as well as samples, and they also use real backup singers.
US3 is another favorite of mine. Their sound is very jazz heavy. I love the way their rap covers serious issues like drug abuse and inner city violence, then can lighten up the mood with silly lyrics "Like He Man, I have the power/ I like my chicken from the China man, so make it sweet and sour."
The Beastie boys will probably always be best known for their first album, but they’ve shown themselves more than capable of experimenting with new sounds.
Finally, if nothing else, Digital Underground proves the validity of rap. But what do I know. Go dowhatchalike.
As far as Eminem? I’m kind of torn with him, because he really IS good, but the extreme violence of many of his songs means that I’m rarely in the mood to listen to his album.
I’m still undecided as to my personal stance as to whether or not Eminem is a social satirist or just another thug with a contract, so I won’t comment on that just yet. As for those who feel that he’ll be gone and forgotten in another 2 years, however, I’ll say that this is incorrect. From my experience, talented rappers that come out with explosively good songs, new sounds, and best selling albums, eventually and invariably resort to turning out mediocre albums as their novel sound fails to change, or otherwise gets swallowed up by the sea of copycats (and let’s not think Eminem’s sound is hard to duplicate; even Christina Aguillera’s parody was done surprisingly well).
Therefore, as with Snoop Dogg, Ice Cube, and even some of Dre’s later works, I’ll say that while they’ll still be better than the vast majority of rap (they’ll be in the top 20% if not necessarily the top 10), they’ll drop off the radar of “popular” music (where, IMHO, Eminem currently is) and return almost exclusively to the domain of the rap enthusiast.
Just my two cents.
So, let’s see here. This wonderful song has to do with an obsessed fan who murders his girlfriend (you don’t “bring someone to death”, it’s called homocide or murder) and and her unborn child. Wow! Now there’s a timeless motif for a song. Somehow, I find this theme to be merely a closed loop of self aggrandizment for Eminem and not much else. Writing a song about three deaths resulting from you not answering a fan’s letter is the height of hubris.
Again, I’ll repeat what I mentioned in my own thread. I suppose that I am only invoking the 90% rule here but I have heard intelligent rap music that has polysyllablic words and depth of meaning. Where I find a difference is that much less than 10% of rock, 1% of classical (if you include opera), 1% of jazz and 1% of pop (refer to Scientific American July 1966 issue for the survey sample) include lyrics about murder, cop killing, gangster activity and general mayhem. I understand that these are features of the modern urban environment, but I do not see the desirability or need to glorify such destructive elements.
Eminem will be a memory in a few years and rightfully so. Society’s progress away from violence and discrimination is dependent upon Eminem’s lack of success. I have nothing against rap music, what I detest is the elevation of criminal activity to some sort of noble or acceptable platform within the context of art. Art, by definition is usually a coherent expression of cultural norms that allow for outside experience of the originator’s mode of mentality. However much rap does achieve this, its end result is all too often self-canceling by dint of the blatant and intentionally offensive nature of its content.
The Beatles will be discussed in another hundred years, while 99% 0f rap will have slid back under the duck weed of the mental cesspool that so much of it has come from. Again, I welcome art in all of its forms. I will not mumble and mouth praise for that which divides and engenders hatred.
All art is subjective, as has been stated above. But I for one DONT like the Beatles, and I dont care how many damn albums they sell. I would rather be locked in a room full of spiders than listen to that caterwauling.
I didnt like Micheal Jackson either, and Thriller sold a gazillion copies. I also found Titanic silly and over acted.
To each their own.
I hate rap, I really do. But strangely enough, I love Will Smith. And now I find myself drawn to eminem. Come to think of it, I liked LL Cool J too… maybe its impossible to dismiss an entire genre when there can be so much diversity within it.
That Stan song doesnt feel like ego stroking to me, it seems more a plea for reason, a cry for releif from obsessed fans. The man cant even crap without a pic in a magazine to go with it.
Now Zenster said:
Well, good point, but by the same token, virtually all of Shakespeares works feature murder, betrayal, scheming relatives… all sorts of nasty stuff.
Teletubbies has none of this, should we hold Teletubbies up as an example that Shakespeare should have followed?
But do you have a problem with Jimi Hendrix singing “Hey Joe,” about a guy with a gun in his hand who’s going to kill his old lady? What about Johnny Cash, who talked about how he shot a man just to watch him die? These two highly respected performers have latched onto the “timeless motif” of homicide pretty readily.
I think Eminem could be discussed many years from now, when music historians tackle the subject of white artists attaining credibility in rap.
Heh, how appropriate this turns up in the Eminem thread. 
Excellent point about Shakespeare and the <insert gagging noises here> Teletubbies kellibelli. It is also the exact reason that I refuse to stand for censorship of any sort. “Hey Joe” by Hendrix has absolutely no appeal to me save for the completely delicious second phase bass hook by Noel Redding later in the song. Johnny Cash has never hit any major heights for me. I eschew all violence be it in real life, rap, literature or “slasher” and “snuff” flicks along with other types of pornography in general for the undesirable mental images that they implant. I also attempt to limit the amount of super-mundane input like soap operas and situation comedies due to their lack of socially redeeming value. YMMV
As to you KKBattousai, I can only commend you upon the grounds that, despite the proximity of the letters “o” and “i” on the standard keyboard, you managed to implement the first order of OROPS (Oldscratch’s Recommendations On Posted Spellings). Touché I must say to you KK (sonant, huh?), although the point remains that the glorification of homicide still remains an issue of questionable validity.
PS: I will happily submit samples of my own lyrics for critique by the members of these boards. Your choice, Blues, Folk or Love Songs, you name it.
I just want to state out the outset, before I start getting into trouble (Which I’m about to do) that I completely agree that YMMV in regards to everything in entertainment, and I also tend to agree about the ephemerality of Eminem’s work.
I do, however, take issue with a couple of things, one minor, the other less so. The minor one is the implied tone of intellectual superiorty regarding “mundane input” that “lack[s] . . . socially redeeming value.” There’s no crime in being entertained, and there’s no crime in being entertained by perfectly pedestrian entertainment that just happens to be funny. Maybe I’m misreading you here, but I get bristly around people whose cultural horses appear to stand a little too tall.
The major one is that, despite admitting differences in people’s tastes, you dismiss the lyrical content of the song “Stan” with a sarcastic, “What a timeless motif.” (Disclaimer: I’ve never heard this song.) Well, actually, yes, it is a timeless motif. Obsession, murder, suicide, revenge–all topics that have come down through the ages. While I can’t excuse the clumsiness with which Eminem approaches topics of this nature (I mean, really, as a satirist I would hardly put him in a class with Swift, or even Dave Barry), neither would I dismiss the notion that that he is, in his own way, working with subject matter that’s been part of expression since time immemorial. The self-aggrandizement? Part of the whole rap and hip hop culture.
Eminem doesn’t do anything for me. My tastes in rap run more towards Public Enemy, Salt ‘n’ Pepa, DAS EFX, Digital Underground, etc. Even then, I don’t endorse all their lyrical content; contrary to Chuck D’s urging, I don’t believe that Farrakhan’s a prophet that I think I oughta listen to. Hell, even John Lennon sang, “I’d rather see you dead, little girl, than to be with another man.” Not the best Beatles song, by a long shot, but the point remains.
Finally, as a bass player, I have to ask what you mean by “second phase bass hook.” I’ve been playing for 14 years, and can’t recall coming across the phrase “second phase.”
My point is, these two artists have performed violent material and nonetheless became respected cornerstones of their respective genres.
I find it interesting that Garth Brooks can perform a song called “Papa Loved Mama,” a rollicking, peppy song about a guy who murders his adulterous wife (chorus: “Papa loved Mama / Mama loved men / Mama’s in the graveyard / Papa’s in the pen”) and he manages to avoid getting a reputation for being a spreader of hate. If anything, he’s viewed as a pop wussy.
I don’t agree with how Eminem approaches some of his subjects. I regard him as a demented genius. However, his lyrics are also self-critical, with an eye on how his rap affects others. Very few artists ever went into that vein.
He for one knows that hiding behind the First Amendment is not enough to defend his art against critics. With “The Way I Am”, and “Who Knew”, he already answered his critics.
He is portraying a misanthrope, an equal-opportunity hater.
I wathched the film “R. Crumb”, about the famous underground artist, and during the film, he was questioned by a woman fan about some of the racially stereotypical drawings he made of Black people (being savages and such), done back twenty years ago. He looked at them and muttered “I did that?” Many, many artists would be like that when confronted with some of his artwork. Marshall Mathers, hopefully, is recognizing that some jokes are better left unsaid. Maybe by recognizing that his sheer talent does not have to be augmented by shock effects, he would hunker down and compose some transcendental music such as “Stan”. That is the development of an artist: 1) gain attention with outrageousness; 2) work for a revolution in art; 3) then as the artist gets older, mellow down and concetrate on making great art, and teach others to do the same.
I found it ironic that after twenty two years in existence, modern rap music is still fueling controversy, and, to an extent still outside the mainstream, commercials and movies notwithstanding. This is a longer period than jazz, blues and rock and roll had.
Hey Zen, you said that you like no violence in your music. I understand that; it can get repetitious. But what music do you like, John Tesh? Yanni? They are about the only two artists I know who never made music about violence.
[li]Johann Sebastian Bach[/li][sup]THE KING OF CLASSICAL MUSIC[/sup]
[li]John Renbourn[/li][sup]A FINGER PICKING MASTER[/sup]
[li]Davy Graham[/li][sup]ONE OF THE UNKNOWN GUITAR GREATS[/sup]
[li]Andres Segovia[/li][sup]A GUITAR GOD[/sup]
[li]Jeff Beck[/li][sup]STILL BLOWS THE DOORS OFF OF OTHER MUSICIANS[/sup]
[li]Bert Jansch[/li][sup]A FOLK FOUNTAINHEAD[/sup]
[li]Jean Pierre Rampal[/li][sup]A FLAUTIST EXTRORDINAIRE[/sup]
[li]Eric Johnson[/li][sup]A SUPERB COMPOSER AND PERFORMER[/sup]
[li]Jimi Hendrix[/li][sup]MASTER OF THE ELECTRIC GUITAR[/sup]
[li]Robert Fripp[/li][sup]UNRECOGNIZED INNOVATOR OF ADVANCED ROCK[/sup]
[li]Pentangle[/li][sup]ONE OF THE MOST VERSATILE GROUPS IN HISTORY[/sup]
[li]Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band[/li][sup]POSSIBLY THE GREATEST UNKNOWN BAND[/sup]
[li]Paul Desmond[/li][sup]A MASTER OF THE SAXOPHONE[/sup]
[li]Cream[/li][sup]ONE OF THE ALL TIME CLASSIC ROCK BANDS[/sup]
[li]Tony McAlpine[/li][sup]A TALENT TO RECKONED WITH[/sup]
Hey cap, the above is a short list of some of my favorite musicians. The majority of murder and mayhem occurs in old British and American folk songs. They are also quite commonly morality tales where the evildoer is punished. It’s kinda hard to incorporate themes of murder and mayhem into instumental tunes which is what I tend to listen to. I go for artistic excellence over spectacle or controversy.
What I find to be hilarious is that Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band was doing rap music back in the 60’s and 70’s long before it was even called rap. I refer you to “Rhinocratic Oaths” or “The Bigshot” (available in my download library). They are exceptional monologues with superb music backing them. Although I eschew violence, there is reference to it in some music that I listen to. The big difference is that it is not glorified. Hendrix is perhaps the most violence prone performer on my list. I listen to him for his guitar work more than the lyrics. If you look at Hendrix’s body of work you will find that it has a consistent theme of brotherhood and love.
As to Yawni and Tesh, those two sub-moron artistic lightweights can suck hind tit. Schmaltz is schmaltz and I’ll leave that to a professional like Lawrence Welk. If you’ve ever heard Eric Johnson’s “Cliffs of Dover” then you know what I like in music. Having just seen Jeff Beck earlier this week my faith is reaffirmed in good solid rock and roll without all the bells and whistles. Beck’s “Brush With The Blues” was a hair raising excursion into electric blues guitar that quite frankly left 99% of other artists in the dust. I came home and erased songs from my already full disk drive to make sure I got a copy of it.
By “second phase bass hook” I am referring to the more elaborate walking bass variation of the main bass theme that shows up near the end of the song in “Hey Joe”. As to a “high cultural horse” KK, I do watch the Brit-com Chef! but not many others, if at all. I prefer to improve my mind. That’s not to say I don’t enjoy the ocassional action flick, but I make no pretenses about them being serious film making.
It’s not a matter of pretentiousness, I just do not have time to waste on pap. There is so much really good work out there that I prefer to surround myself with it instead of third rate crap. If you saw my song library, I think you’d understand. I refer you to the Simpsons for my idea of fine television entertainment.
My song library contains the works of everyone from the Oak Ridge Boys to Pennywise to James Taylor to Debbie Gibson to Tom Jones to Aqua. My tastes run into just about every genre and subgenre imaginable. However, there are certain types of music which I will never listen to, and homophobic, misogynistic, slur-filled rap is one of them. I don’t give a damn what these guys really think. There are just certain things which I cannot listen to, and Eminem’s type of music is one of them. (Just to keep it in respective, I think that “I Will Always Love You” by Whitney Houston and “Babe” by Styx are two of the most grating, unbearable songs ever, so it’s not prudery or anything.)
I’ve been listening to rap music for years and its appeal still fails to elude me. I mean, there’s hardly any singing (yes, singing matters to me), and when there is singing it’s usually some repetitive chorus. For the most part it reminds me of a poetry reading, except that it’s usually so fast that I can barely follow. And that’s just mainstream rap, not anywhere near the level of gangsta or hardcore or whatever Eminem’s category supposedly is.
I dunno…I’m not proposing a ban, but every time one of these new waves becomes enormously popular, I get so frustrated at how I never seem to get anything. (I felt the same way about Beavis and Butthead, too.) I appreciate a good singing voice…heck, I have ten Enya songs right now. Am I really missing out here?
Gotta agree with you here DKW. Witless Houston has one of the finest sets of pipes in the business and the drivel she churns out is almost physically painful to listen to. Almost? Hell, it is physically painful to hear. Adam Sandler’s send up of her would have been funny if it weren’t just as hard to put up with as the original. In contrast to Eminem’s messages, hers are so vacant and doe-eyed that I want to hurl. I mean, there’s content and then there’s content.
I just do not have the time to listen to murderous rage and hate filled ranting. I get enough of that on the five o’clock news as it is. I’ll stick to material that makes me dive for my guitar or flute when I hear it.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Snooooopy *
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Good point, but Jimi was singing about someone else and Johnny was facing severe consequences for his actions, a far cry from MM fantasizing about wife-killing.
I always wondered if he killed a man in Reno, why is he in Folsom prison?
Ok Zenster, my apologies. My music is also quite eclectic, from classical (especially Bach) to blues to rock to rap. I just cannot stand music suited for the elevator. And I don’t care for many of the love songs either; I don’t have a girlfriend whom I can seduce with love songs. My type of music tends to be on the humorous/witty side. Rap music would be pure noise without humor or wit. Unfortunately, it has been taken over by gangsters such as Surge Knight, who persuaded the record companies into thinking that the only raps that sell are those about organized crime.
Absolutely no apology needed cap. I’ll shrug off the Yawni and Tesh question in favor of the fact that we often agree about other things. Do me a favor and get yerself a copy of Beck’s “Brush With The Blues”. The 1999 live Japanese version is the most convincing. Email me if you want me to send you a copy of it or the Bonzo’s “Rhinocratic Oaths”. If you like comedy you’ll have a fit listening to their work. Imagine Spike Jones meets The Mothers of Invention with ragtime to classical overtones.
So what if he was singing about someone else? If I wrote a song which read “My friend Joe said that Nazis are really awesome and everyone should join the North American Man-Boy Love Association and it’s fun to kill your parents on the way to having sex with corpses!” would you excuse it by saying, “Aw, Snooooopy was singing about someone else”? It’s a pretty flimsy dodge.
Having just perused the lyrics, I see that Joe might have gotten away with the crime scot-free. And Jimi/the narrator doesn’t try to stop Joe when he announces his intentions at the beginning of the song.
I’m honestly not trying to equate Eminem and Jimi Hendrix. I’m just trying to note that not every good and worthwhile song necessarily involves the good guys winning or nice, happy thoughts being expressed.
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As a dedicated fan of “Law and Order,” I’m just going to have to guess that ADA Jack McCoy pulled some funny business to have juridiction transferred.