Thank you for the update Hamlet, I hadn’t heard that her trial was approaching.
I was just thinking about this case today too, as I strapped my boy into his seat. I haven’t heard any of stories like this yet this summer. I’m sure that’s not because it isn’t happening, just that they’ve fallen out of “style” in the media. But I must say, not hearing about baking babies every day for a full summer is rather refreshing.
I know it’s a couple of years old, but I didn’t see any replies to people asking how no one else noticed the babies locked in the car.
My uncle owns a hair salon that is next door to one that specializes in hair extensions and weaves. It’s entirely possible that her salon didn’t have a lot of traffic through the parking lot since a single customer could be there for hours and in some cases, all day.
I don’t get this. I don’t remember ever hearing about kids being left in cars to freeze in the wintertime. What is it about summer that brings this about ?
Are people really so stupid, after all the public warnings that they don’t know the dangers?
I mean, I realize there ARE a lot of truly dumb people, but how hard is it to rememer something this simple?
Sigh.
My guess is that people don’t do this (leave small children locked in a car) any more often in summer; it’s just more likely to be fatal. Even on a cold day, it takes awhile for the inside of a car to get cold enough to be life-threatening, but on a hot day, a car in the sun can very quickly become hot enough to kill a child.
This seems to happen here in Atlanta every single summer, sometimes more than once.
It’s a horrible thing to realize that some people are that vile to do such a thing, and then drive around to figure a way to save THEIR OWN hide. She might be stupid and crazy but she certainly had her wits about her enough to think of her OWN salvation. I hope the jury remembers that.
Each year starting in April, every TV station in Las Vegas begins reminding residents about the danger of leaving ANY living thing in a locked car. As the temperature gets higher and higher, the “reminders” become more frequent. The weatherpeople will do a “let me show you” kind of thing by putting a thermometer in a car and monitoring the heat in real time. Over and over we hear it. Newscasts. Billboards. Newspaper. Does that stop some waste of fucking space from leaving a child or animal locked in a car? Nope. It happens a dozen or so times each summer. Luckily, someone usually discovers the animal/child before they die.
Last summer two people left their children locked in the car while they got married in one of the chapels. If I remember correctly, it was 109 out that day. I can still see the clip of that man on TV yelling at reporters “Mind your own business, they’re MY kids and I’ll do what I want.” Did they get in big shit trouble? Nope. It was decided because they were from out of town, they didn’t realize the danger. I remember at the time one of our ER docs said he’d like to see the punishment fit the crime and have the parents locked in the car for the same length of time. As much as I hate to wish harm on another human being, I’m thinking that might almost be good enough for the woman in the OP.
I am horrified by this. Er, obviously. And it happens every summer, often more than once.
What I’m extra horrified by is that no one at all called the police. Three and a half hours at the salon? People MUST have walked past that car. One phone call could have saved those kids’ lives.
Well, it takes a little while, but in the teens or below zerio, if a child is left in acar for 3 and a half hours as in the case of the OP, or for most of the day, as in the case of the parent who didn’t usually take the child to daycare, and somehow left their child in the car at their place of work, then it would be a problem, if not death, then frostbite, severe hypothermia, etc.
It’s possible that that has happened. I just don’t remember hearing any media stuff about it, as one does iwth the summer deaths. It seems as though, if it were a problem that the media would pick that up also.
And then someone left a link (which I haven’t read yet, but will) regarding it not being evil, but ignorance.
This floors me. I mean, with any kindof public service announcement, the public is FLOODED with warnings, TV, news, the little ad thinigies on bus benches and so on. How could people continue to be so clueless?
bolding mine.
First of all, Oh PUH lease (not against YOU daisy, against those who decided this). I’m originally from Alaska, and, as some from even colder spots than Anchorage (michegan) have mentioned, even we get pretty hot weather in the summer, and know the dangers of leaving pets/children/living creatures in the car in the summer. Were they from Antarctica perhaps?
Secondly, “it was decided”??? By the authorities you mean? Good grief. Then, IMHO, they have a smidgeon of responsibility for furthering this idiocy as well. They should have been hauled downtown, and through whatever means, had the seriousness of their actions impressed DEEPLY into their hearts, brains and souls (viewing babies who’d died in similar incidences perhaps?), forever after.
Darn, the link has either expired, something? All I got was a “no longer available” site. Would you mind posting it again if you have it? Thanks
I don’t know if it applies to her vehicle, but my mom once asked me if I had a spare jacket in the back of my new [sub]boo! hiss[/sub] SUV. I said I’d go look if there was one in the backseat. I got there, I could not see thru the factory installed standard (i.e. no tinting requested) windows. I hadn’t realized they were so opaque to people outside. The fronts are clear, and I can see fairly well OUT of the back.
Also, from what I’ve read, the poor babies were probably dead within 45-60 minutes. It was nearly 90 that day and very sunny. So unless someone had happened upon them within that period little would have changed. I think this was murder, completely premeditated. The miracle-preventitive to this tragedy would have been, obviously, for that woman to get a sitter or take her kids with her. But instead she chose to spend a lazy afternoon while her children gasped their last breaths in an oven she locked them in. She got out of that car and closed the door knowing that those babies were in there. I think she wanted them to die, and I hope they lock her up until her uterus is nothing but a shriveled little raisin in her gut.
What I don’t get is how someone can say it’s just stupidity or ignorance on her part and then turn around and point out that it happens all the time as some sort of defense. Yes, it does happen all the time–and it’s widely publicized! So how can anyone be so completely ignorant of the fact that leaving someone in a closed car for long periods of time can be rapidly fatal? That, IMO, makes this woman MORE responsible, not less!
CanvasShoes, here’s a working link that appears to be very similar to the one I posted two years ago.
Apparently such incidents increased significantly in 2003.
I’m going to support Surreal, who is taking a beating from everyone here. Ok, everyone who is piling on Surreal, yes, you are (quite understandably) angry, because this was a horrid thing to happen to two innocent souls, and the mother is certainly guilty of gross ignorance and very likely a certain amount of callous and purposeful negligence. She will serve a good deal of time in jail for her crime, alone with her thoughts and memories.
For many of you, that doesn’t seem to be good enough. Frankly, reading this, I’m seeing that a lot of people are venting their most violent rage all over this thread. You all sound like a lynch mob working each other up to do dispense some extra-legal justice. The hateful energy in here feels a little scary.
Are we not dedicated to fighting ignorance? Surely the mother was guilty of such (along with other moral shortcomings) but is not your response base as well? It is in such an environment of shared rage that ignorance can do great harm.
To explain my feelings on this matter: which of you have in your lives done something reprehensible, small or large? Acted irresponsibly out of spite? Taken out your feelings on others? And perhaps in the end some calamity occurred as a result of your actions, and it was only this misfortune that finally got you to see how destructive you were, to yourself and/or to others. And even if others tried to put salve on your guilt, every time you were alone with your thoughts, you would face the consequences of your inability to act correctly and do the right thing. You would have created a little hell for yourself to live in.
I would hope that this unfortunate and foolish woman has enough conscience left to feel sick at heart, incurably, at what she has done. If so, then no punishment you could dispense to her, not death, not the stupid suggestion of rape, would be as bad as simply leaving her to reflect for a very long time. If she is incapable of feeling this kind of remorse, then how could any punishment you think of possibly reach her? No, it would only serve to make you feel better.
…and from the article cited by Otto …
Neither can I…
A student of Michigan-Dearborn no less.
Hair, clothes, massage and a snack…didn’t even take the time to even check in-between shops…I think “intent to harm” is becoming more credible for the prosecution.
I think the ideal course of action would be a hysterectomy. No anesthesia. With one of the car windows that has their face-prints on them. This is seriously the worst thing I’ve ever seen linked from the SDMB. I believe it’s the only thing that’s almost made me cry. And although I’ll probably stick to my “no kids” rule for quite a while, I would have a hard time ever even thinking about doing this to ANYONE’S kid. The annoying bratty kid at Wal-Mart? Yeah, he deserves a slow, painful death in a car-oven. :rolleyes: What could these kids have possibly done to their mother to make her do this?
Besides… if you’re that dissatisfied with your children, there are orphanages everywhere that would be willing to save them from that. They may be overcrowded in some places, but they’re never going to ask that you bake your kids instead.
I agree that people are being too hard on surreal, she’s done nothing but be TOO nice regarding this 'woman". But I think that the problem is, that most people can’t conceive of that kind of stupidity and neglect.
I can’t understand AT ALL the ones who “forget” their children. As I’ve said before in similar threads, how is it possible to walk by your car, and not check to make sure you haven’t forgotten anything for work (let alone if your kid is in there), your lunch, purse, briefcase, that the doors are locked, etc.?
Do these people put their heads in the air the second they’re out of the car and walk straight away, or turn in place carefully not looking at the car? How can the sight of something unusual in the back seat NOT catch their notice?
As so many people have already mentioned, I won’t even leave tapes or CDs in my car in the summer, in ALASKA for crying out loud. And after the years and years of intense public service announcements, it’s just too hard to believe that someone could be THAT forgetful, or that “stupid”. This smacks strongly of premeditated, so no, I don’t think she’s “suffereing” all that much.
In the case of this woman, she did not “forget” she just flat out left them in there. And the fact that she drove around trying to come up with an excuse to save her OWN ass puts serious doubt on the “fact” that she’ll suffer as you and surreal seem to think.
When one is talking helpless babies purposely put into a deadly situation, what would you expect the response to be? I doubt that the responses in the PIT, which is here for just that reason, would be most people’s choice were they actually in charge of doling out punishment to her. I don’t want the woman to die at all, that would end any small pinch of consciense she could feel, if any. When someone perpetrates this horrendous a crime, what should be the response? Just let them go on their merry way? She should be locked up, if for NO other reason than to prevent her from harming other children.
Incidentally, I remember reading an article about rapists some time ago. One of the parts of their treatment was that victims of rape were allowed to confront them on a weekly basis to vent how their attacks had destroyed their lives.
Having to look rape victims in the eye, and answer to THEM for their crimes helped the men to see how wrong they’d been. It didn’t rehabilitate them, but at least they could see what they’d done wrong. Which did help the victims with their fears, anger and residual mental problems from their own attacks.
I can’t see where something similar for people like the idiot in the OP wouldn’t be a good compromise. Punishment with a constructive reason.
CanvasShoes, I wasn’t saying that the mother shouldn’t be punished. She should and will be punished. And I laid out that the ideal punishment would be for her to have a long time away from society to face herself and her crime.
As far as your suspicion that the act was premeditated, one thing seems wrong. Why would she then drive around thinking of what to say to the police? Wouldn’t she have already thought of a story? I think it far more likely that she was trying to punish her children with a little discomfort. Or perhaps she was tired of being a mother and wanted some time as a young woman, shopping, and thus left her children behind so she could pretend she wasn’t a mother for awhile.
I think she was willfully negligent, likely mean-spirited, and very likely grossly uninformed about how to be a mother. I do not think she intended for her children to die.
My point in the above post was that she was doing a wrong thing, and (probably) knew it. She was needlessly exposing to harm those who were dependent on her. And the only reason we are sitting here discussing it is because everything came to a head. I can only imagine the range of possible emotions she was feeling as she drove around. Anywhere from sociopathic indifference to heart-wrenching remorse, horror, and self-hatred. She may have come up with her story to tell simply because she didn’t have the strength to face what she had done.
I don’t know the answer. I do know that her behavior, though unusually out of proportion, is of a pattern all too human. It is very human to willfully act in ignorance and malice, and by doing so knowingly hurt others, but not be motivated to change one’s ways. Not everyone encounters the resulting catastrophe, but she did, and she will rightly have to face it.
So, having asserted that she must face a heavy punishment, I was then trying to break through all the crying out for blood and vengeful satisfaction, and foster a little compassion in this discussion for a soul who has gone wayward, and stumbled. Who among us is free from the compulsion to act stupidly, and ignore what is right, on any occasion? Let’s be thankful, those of us who have never known the agony of committing some mean-headed stupidity that has caused our own to suffer.
Oh sorry, didn’t mean to imply that you thought there should be no punishment at all. Was kinda rambling on about three different parts of this at once. I was more, in reference to your post, asking how much punishment would be sufficient? And commenting that "just jail’ for someone as the perp seems to be, doesn’t seem to be “enough” and that that is where a lot of the vicious anger from this post comes from. Her babies die in a heinous way, and she spends a few years in jail. Doesn’t seem right, that’s all.
As others have posted, there was some talk of her “punishing them”. And a few people then posted Michegan laws regarding premeditation. She may not have premeditated actual murder, or maybe she did, but she seems to have planned to 'punish" them.
As far as “if she premeditated it, why did she have to drive around thinking up a reason”?? I’d guess that may have originally thought something along the lines of “I see these things happen every year, I’ll pretend that’s what happened to me, and play the bereaved mother” and then, when she got back in the car, her freshly coiffed hair stared back at her from the rearview mirror, and she might have realized “oh, that won’t fly” and that’s where the driving around and eventually thinking up the lame rape and murder story came about.
Someone stupid enough to try and punish, or even kill their kids this way probably isn’t smart enough to do it “well”. Meaning not likely to be found out.
That’s entirely possible, in my post, I said it “smacks strongly of premeditated” meaning harm, not necessarily murder. Though with the way she’s acted, that wouldn’t surprise me at all.
You’re right, we’ll likely not ever know her true feelings on the matter.
Well, in this part, I’ll have to disagree. The link that surreal provided (thanks) stated that about 200 of these accidents had happened in I think it was about 4 years, I’d have to look at the link again, but I think that was the number. At any rate, as horrendous as it is, considering the millions of people in this country, that’s a tiny number. And as I stated in my post, THIS is what I find tremendously hard to comprehend, or to excuse as a human failing of ignorance and malice.
To me, it just goes so far beyond that. Especially the ignorance part. It’s SOOO publicized, the information on the dangers of hot cars, and it’s so hard to imagine how a child can’t be seen at least on the last check of the car for doors locked, purse/briefcase/lunch out of the car and so on.
I mean, even though my kids are; one fully grown and on her own, one a young teen, I STILL feel them, worry about them, have my mind on them frequently. It boggles the mind to think (especially thinking back on my firstborn, and me up every 15 seconds to make sure she was still breathing :D), that folks with a tiny baby, toddler, or young child wouldn’t just as a matter of practice and natural instinct, be constantly on guard for just this sort of danger.
Well, on the first part, I’ll reiterate what I said in my first post, that of “what response would you expect from people”? I’d wager that the people in this post would not really act like this in public, nor would they actually call for vengeance/blood. Some would, but IMHO, what they’re saying here is what the pit is for, that is, Venting, venting the anguish, horror, the mind boggling incomprehension of such an act.
As to your second part. I think that the reason we haven’t committed some “mean headed stupidity” is not due to luck, or fate, or what have you, so if there is anything to be “thankful” for, it’s to our own aility to control ourselves, not to some unnamed luck. I don’t think just anyone could do that, I think they choose it. That’s another issue, but I don’t agree that it’s that we are somehow “special” or blessed, or lucky, it’s a choice.
One possible factor is that kids as young as three and four are in school, for at least part of the day, during the winter but not in the summer. Kids spend more time with their parents in the summer. This gives abusive parents more opportunity to abuse.