So what exactly could the US do to de-radicalize the mid-east?
Regards,
-Bouncer-
Perhaps not invading an arab country under false premises?
Uh, no; wait… too late.
More seriously; perhaps if the USA would just for one time tell Israel in strong terms (this time put some meaning on it) to retire from the occupied territories that would help.
So far, IMHO I think that the Arab world sees the Israeli/USA situation like some sort of screwing by proxy.
“Israeli/USA relation”
Sorry… I´m past my bed time. :smack:
Ermmm . . . but that’s the kind of thinking that got us into Iraq, adaher. We got rid of a tyrant there, but our success has done nothing but inflame anti-American feelings in Iraq and all over the Islamic world. Do you really think it would turn out differently if we toppled the tyrants ruling Syria, or Saudi Arabia, or Iran?
Stopping all financial support for Middle East despots would be a good start. That would include not buying their oil. Full sanctions, no trade, no diplomatic relations. Refuse to even recognize the legitimacy of their rule. Hammer away in the UN the same way we do on Cuba. The only rule that will be recognized is rule by the consent of the people.
Helping overthrow democratically elected governments in Iran and Chile was a strange way of expressing America’s unconditional support for democracy.
Neither government was a democracy at the time we overthrew them. Both were in the process of ignoring their own constitutions. Which was causing unrest, which led to coups. Coups that we supported, but could not have been carried out without indiginous support.
SimonX, how do you propose to fight Al Qaeda in such a way that we do not swell their ranks? Assuming of course that this is actully happening.
I have no doubt that more people WANT to join Al Qaeda. But are they actually able to join? You can’t just decide one day to join Al Qaeda and go to your local Al Qaeda recruiter. You almost certainly have to jump through all kinds of hoops and I’m sure the US government and other governments have all kinds of people posing as potential recruits and snaring the recruiters in the process.
Ale,
Not to disagree with you, but I’m not sure how universally that view is held.
Let me explain my confusion:
I noticed the Palestinian Authority found the people who blew up the US diplomatic vehicle in record time. That would tend to indicate they have no desire to make enemies of the US which would, I think, point towards less radicalization rather than more. I mean, if they really consider us on par with the Israelis, and are becoming more polarized against the US, why bother?
Maybe it’s the vicodin (please no Rush jokes) for my pinched nerve, but the impression I get is an eagerness to win positive points with the US. If radicalization were taking place, then I’d think the opposite would occur.
I’m not trying to speak from a position of arrogance, it just seems a bit odd how they actually reacted versus how this report would indicate they would react. OTOH, maybe it’s more accurate to not compare one mid-east area with another, in which case, while radicalization may be occuring in some areas it is not occuring (or is occuring much less) in other areas.
I would be curious to know (if anyone does) how much more “radical” Afghans are being. Versus Pakistanis. Versus Saudis, Versus iranians, Versus Kurds, Versus Kuwaitis, Versus Bahrainians and so on.
I just kind of wonder if we aren’t applying region specific radicalism to a much broader area/populace than may be appropriate.
OTOH, maybe I just need another flintstones chewable numbness pill. 
Regards,
-Bouncer-
Why does Israel get blamed for everything that happens in the ME?
Israel could vanish tomorrow (which is exactly what the majority of the Arab-Muslim world wants) and there would still be huge problems there. Israel is a strawman used by the reactionaries in the Arab-Muslim world to divert attention from their own horrible regimes. Europe plays along with it because they don’t want to confront their own guilt for thousands of years of anti-Semitism and the rest of the world plays along because they don’t want to confront the power of the energy producers.
The US should encourage democracy and literacy in the ME. We should end our dependence on Saudi oil and fund and subsidize non polluting energy production. We should support moderate Islamic leaders in their fight against fundamentalism.
That would certainly aid in the fight against terror.
Some good ideas from the pros.
Invading Iraq, how we did, when we did and why we did wasn’t the best option open to us, but that cat’s out of the poke now.
It’s true, I assume, that it’s not easy to join al Qaeda. But whatever their requirements are, they have likely remained unchanged as a variable in the equation. What has changed is the probability of finding potential, likely recruits. However hard it was to gain the trust of al Qaeda b4 the invasion of Iraq, it’s probably just as hard now. Since the complexity of doing such hasn’t altered what’s critical is what has changed- the number of willing candidates.
The estimates that I’ve seen as to the number of al Qaeda members run from 18,000 to 70,000. Assuming that there’re 100,000 members, that still leaves 99.999%+ of Muslims that are not members of al Qaeda. We need to engage the Muslim world in ways that’ll drive a wedge between this 99.999%+ and the lunatc fringe.
As outsiders, the US can only do so much when it comes to cutting off funds and supplies, seizing assets etc. However, if the numbers of people who’re likely to aid terrorist orgs is diminished, the impact of what we can do becomes greater and simultaneously, it becomes more difficult for al Qaeda et al to obtain these necessary funds and resources.
One thing that we as Americans must look at is our “special relationship” with Israel. For example, we’ve dropped our objection to their security wall. Of all the nations in the UN only four voted against the measure condemning the wall, Israel, (of course), the US, (for some reason I don’t understand), Micronesia, and the Marshall Islands, (both vital partners in our ‘coalition of the willing’, IIRC). What’s up with that? Why don’t we have the balls to stick by what we said about the wall? We came out against it originally. If we wanted to could easily withold ALL loan guarantees and such to Israel until we acquired compliance. But, for some reason, we don’t. The US should be busting Israel’s balls when Israel doesn’t do what we want, not the other way around. We’re the hyper-power in this relationship. It’s small wonder that many in the Arab world see Israel and the US as being in collusion.
Wow, another thread of third worlders, self loathing american leftists, and islamics bashing the USA…
Who woulda thunk it?
I’m not sure that this is the case. However, most of the countries in the ME have enaged in armed conflict w/ Israel. Israel is sen as not being subject to UN and UNSC constrictions the same as the other ME nations. This seeming immunity is the result of the use of the US’s veto in the UNSC.
True enough, but not very meaningful. As an example of what I mean by not very meaningful: disease could vanish tomorrow, and there would stil be huge problems in the world.
While some of this undoubtedly goes on, it’s not exclusively the case that every time Israel is railed against that it is a strawman. Israel is a country like any other in that it engages in activities for the benefit of itself and occasionally these actions are at the expense of other countries.
I’d have to see some more on these two before I’d buy either one of them. I doubt that these’re the reasons for the recent votes in the UN over Israel’s wall.
Provide some evidence. Change my mind.
These goals are certainly laudible.
The pathetic UN resolution means nothing at all, and Israel is under no obligations to follow it in any way, shape or form. It is merely symbolic. So Israel should continue with the wall, and make it bigger, wider and longer, inorder to keep undesirable homicidal maniacs out.
It is as useless and pathetic as another UN resolution which the arabs brought forth in 1974 (zionism = racism), which was later on repelled.
The US usually votes in favor of Israel, because Israel is in the right. What other countries around the world decide to do, is their perogative. That all of the muslim world votes against Israel is no big surpise, as anti-semitism (yes, arabs are semitic also, so let’s just say jew hating) is as common there as sand is in the sahara, and destroying Israel is probably high on many peoples list. Europe votes the way it does, because it has various self interests to look out for, which include rapidly growing angry, anti-semitic muslim populations, oil, their own anti- semitism and a few other factors.
The US has a “special relationship” with every democracy in the world. There is not one democracy that we don’t support 100% and consider a friend and often an ally. If we abandoned Israel THAT would be special, as in very unusual. Especially if we continued to give aid to Israel’s neighbors as we do now.
Now, as for that sheet, it’s all about how to change our diplomacy. It says nothing about strategies to actually fight those that want to destroy us. That’s one heck of an omission.
If the wall is so right why did our Pres come out agin it?
The wall would be 100% right if it didn’t cut off Palestinian cities from one another.
If the Israelis were smart and built it strictly along their recognized territory it wouldn’t have stopped the General Assembly from condemning it, but it would make it easier for them to justify it.
Making aid contingent on Israeli compliance w/ our interests is not the ame as “abndoning” Israel. If you will recall, Sec Baker, under Reagan did just this sort of thing to bring the Israelis to the negotiating table. If you will notice, despite having made US aid to Israel contingent, the US has not abandoned Israel.
The sheet is an 81 page report about the diplomatic angle that must accompany the martial aspect of the War on Terror. It’s not supposed to address the martial aspect, (which’s what I assume you mean by “actually fightthose who want to destroy us”). It’s abut the long term aspects that, (according to Rumsfled), we’ve not devoted enough energy to. Diplomacy is essential to warfare, (even as long ago as Sun Tzu this was realized). Especially in this instance where the war is against murderous ideologies, (as well as those who practice them), instead of other states. Diplomacy in this instance is essential to cutting off our enemy’s ‘supply routes’ and reinforcements.
Making aid contingent on Israeli compliance w/ our interests is not the ame as “abndoning” Israel. If you will recall, Sec Baker, under Reagan did just this sort of thing to bring the Israelis to the negotiating table. If you will notice, despite having made US aid to Israel contingent, the US has not abandoned Israel
If we did this to any other nation, it would be considered imperialism. Oh well.
The sheet is an 81 page report about the diplomatic angle that must accompany the martial aspect of the War on Terror
I haven’t read it all, but it does make perfect sense from a diplomatic perspective. What I’ve read so far that is.
But I don’t think many of us disagree on the diplomatic aspect. It’s the military/strategic aspect that is exciting so much disagreement.
So the USA should stop complaining about 9/11… if you support Israel unconditionally accept unconditioanally the loathing and destruction that islamic terrorism brings. If the US doesn’t want to change or budge from their current position why should muslims change ?
What does the US gain from all this help to Israel ? Lobby money ? I understand the notion of defending democracies... its another thing to veto everything the UN does against them, getting animosity from Muslims and handing them billions for weapons.
Even small reproaches to Israel's actions and diminishing a bit support for them would play wonders with muslims. (Hardly weakening Israel's defenses at all) Which in turn helps isolate Al Qaeda... instead the US seems ever more supportive of Israeli arrogance and heavy handiness.
BTW - Diasy Cutter your bordering on paranoia by thinking Europe is rooting for the destruction of Israel… christ put some colors in your vision please. All your tuff talk sounds out of place when even hardcore assholes like Rummy are having second thoughts. (Remember Britain and France were together with Israel in the Suez Canal adventure ? Opposed by the US !)
**So the USA should stop complaining about 9/11… if you support Israel unconditionally accept unconditioanally the loathing and destruction that islamic terrorism brings. If the US doesn’t want to change or budge from their current position why should muslims change ?
**
To be perfectly blunt, we will fight anyone who attacks us, regardless of their reasons.
If we truly have no moral superiority, we may just start acting like we have no morals. If you think we are bad now, wait til we take the gloves off.
**What does the US gain from all this help to Israel ? Lobby money ? I understand the notion of defending democracies… its another thing to veto everything the UN does against them, getting animosity from Muslims and handing them billions for weapons.
**
Israel is a democracy and the closest friend to the US outside the Anglosphere.
**Even small reproaches to Israel’s actions and diminishing a bit support for them would play wonders with muslims. (Hardly weakening Israel’s defenses at all) Which in turn helps isolate Al Qaeda… instead the US seems ever more supportive of Israeli arrogance and heavy handiness.
**
US does make small criticisms of Israel. It doesn’t help. Abandoning Israel might make us some Arab friends, but it would be another Munich. We will not sell out democracies to dictators. We will also not countenance a second Holocaust.
**BTW - Diasy Cutter your bordering on paranoia by thinking Europe is rooting for the destruction of Israel… christ put some colors in your vision please. All your tuff talk sounds out of place when even hardcore assholes like Rummy are having second thoughts. (Remember Britain and France were together with Israel in the Suez Canal adventure ? Opposed by the US !)
**
Europe doesn’t want the destruction of ISrael. They are just naturally appeasers. They didn’t want the destruction of Czechoslovakia either, but their policies led to it.
And ? Therefore 3000 dead at the WTC were worth it ? What has this friendship done to the US ? Since the US won’t stick its head out when South American democracies are close to the brink due to economic difficulties. Why bail out Israel every single time ? Every single time… If Israel gets special treatment beyond what they need… no wonder Israel feels free to act the way they have. EVERYTHING ISRAEL does due to this special protection is therefore considered as US responsibility by others. Walls and all.
Did I say abandon ? Has anyone said abandon or sell out ?
Is Israel really so close to being overrun ? I don't see any arab nations truly contemplating invading Israel. Arafat and the palestinians aren't about to destroy Israel either. Its always the same bullshit answers:
Criticize Israel = anti semitism
“Abandon” Israel = Holocaust and Genocide
Come on… those pathetic arab armies aren’t even close to menacing Israel’s existence. The US is there to back 'em up anyway… even if some US ships get shot up by Israel.
And ? Therefore 3000 dead at the WTC were worth it ?
9/11 wasn’t caused by our support for ISrael. It was only one of many factors, and frankly not even the biggest one. The presence of troops in Saudi Arabia and the sanctions and bombing of Iraq were cited far more often by bin Laden than Israel.
**Did I say abandon ? Has anyone said abandon or sell out ?
Is Israel really so close to being overrun ? I don’t see any arab nations truly contemplating invading Israel. Arafat and the palestinians aren’t about to destroy Israel either. Its always the same bullshit answers:
**
If all you want is for us to criticize them, that’s fine. And we already do that.
Face it. Arabs want the destruction of ISrael. Sure, they can’t do it, that’s why they are so mad. They see the fact they can’t destroy Israel as our fault. Even if we started criticizing them, as long as they exist we will get blamed for it.
So why back Israel so much and all the time ? Criticizing and not going thru with the criticism stinks of hypocrisy. See the condemnation of the wall thingy.