Suppose someone enlists into one of the armed forces, and decides after a few days of training that it’s not for him and he wants out. Can he somehow resign once he’s already started basic training? If not, what would happen if he just decided to be passive about everything; in other words, he’d be slovenly and not try hard at anything. At that point, would he be discharged, or would there be some sort of court martial?
(I do realize there may be differences in how the different services handle something like this.)
There’s a quick and very effective system in place against such people: The entire unit is held responsible for the actions, or inactions, of each individual recruit. Unearned punishment insures that they will bond as one and side with their instructors.
He’d most likely be given an Entry Level Seperation. No court martial but possibly some non-judicial punishment. He would not qualify for any benefits and practically it would be as if he had never joined in the first place.
Not really. If someone makes it to basic training and it’s readily apparent they just will not “work” in the military, they’ll get them out pretty quickly and it won’t have any hugely detrimental (if any) effect on that person’s civilian life. It also wouldn’t create the sort of negative that a dishonorable discharge would (which can follow you around when you try and apply for jobs and it shows up in a background check.)
The United States military, even with shortages of manpower from our increased military commitments, is still not interested in people being brought in who really don’t want to be there. It’s absolutely not in the best interests of the United States armed forces to have soldiers who just aren’t really wanting to be in the military at all.
Now I’m sure if you asked this question during a period of conscription how it would be handled would probably be different.
When I was in Army basic training in the early nineties, I saw the scenarios depicted by both **Bear_Nenno **and **Beware of Doug **play out. Actually, I remember a couple cases where recruits who were passively or aggressively defiant received various punishments as individuals and/or in the manner described by Beware of Doug; in those few cases where the punishments did not work, the recruit was given an ELS. But it was not always this way. I remember one loser (on whose behalf I did about a zillion pushups one day, along with my fellow recruits) who made it almost to the end of Basic Training with being lazy and apathetic before getting kicked out–his father was a very high ranking something or other. A second recruit who routinely displayed a decided lack of motivation and who liked to start fights did graduate basic, for reasons I do not understand. So really, even though this is not a very satisfying answer, I would have to reply to **Shinna Minna Ma **with “it depends.” In general, however, the Army (and presumably the other services), will either whip the recruit into shape or get rid of him or her. Regarding the question of whether a recruit can just quit somehow–oops, I thought this military game was for me but I guess I was wrong–I think there are ways to do this, but I don’t know what they are. I know one of my fellow recruits began to attempt this but was talked out of pursuing this course of action by one of our drill sergeants. I also suspect few really try to “resign” in Basic Training. Speaking from my past, I think most of my cohort of would-be soldiers at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, circa 1991, was very motivated to get through the ordeal successfully and move on to whatever it was that had inspired us to join the military in the first place.
You can’t typically just ask to be let out. If you really want out with an ELS you need to talk to a mental health counselor in the military, and basically say you can’t adjust emotionally to military life. This needs to be either genuine or you need to be convincing or the counselor needs to be sympathetic with getting people out the door who don’t want to be there. I think it takes two assessments from a counselor before the ELS can be approved and process. I also believe there is a mandatory amount of time you have to have been in training before you are allowed to leave. Even if you are receiving mental health counseling your training is not to be suspended and you must continue participating in training, if not you will be subject to whatever extra-judicial punishments come your way (and if it goes far enough, you can actually be charged.)
The minimum period in training is because most people hate their first few weeks in, it’s totally alien and just plain not fun. However, even the ones who really are unhappy are usually okay if pushed to keep going for awhile. The rare ones who just can’t stand it and never will adjust, that’s what the ELS is for.
The bad way to go about it is to pretend you’re physically incapable of completing training. If you do this and there is a belief you’re just faking it, that can actually result in a courts martial and a mark against you (you’ll still get moved out of the military.) Obviously you’d have to do this a lot before it came down on you, and you’d have to ignore people telling you explicitly that that was what was going to happen to you if you kept malingering.
Now, if you are genuinely just so physically incapable that you can’t complete basic, they can get you out with an ELS as well. It’s not supposed to happen because that’s why they do screenings when they recruit you, but occasionally people get in with greater than acceptable fat mass, respiratory problems et cetera and they are just genuinely incapable of completing basic training due to their physical condition. Those people will be given an ELS without the requirement of meeting with a mental health counselor. I’ve even heard of some cases of people who were let in but were just so horribly out of shape (fat) that they couldn’t complete basic coming back a year or so later after having gotten fit on their own and reenlisting.
I’ve read a lot of news articles lately where the Army at least (not sure about the other branches) is really wanting to clamp down on people getting fat or joining fat. For a long time there have been ways to “massage” persons with too much weight in through the mandatory requirements. For example if you didn’t meet the strict height/weight chart I believe it used to be possible to get through by having someone say “his body fat % is low enough” but now the height/weight charts are being strictly enforced. I’ve even heard from some friends that a few guys with 15+ years in who have “let themselves go” have been told they need to take care of the problem. When I was in service I knew some guys who definitely fell into the category of “letting themselves go” and they never received any warning or sanction because of it. I do think if you’re already past basic training they give you like 2 years to get in shape, which is a very easy time frame.
My cousin went into the Navy, and a week or so in to training she realized she couldn’t handle taking orders (???). She convinced them she was crazy and was sent home. AFAIK it hasn’t affected her civilian life. This was about 10 years ago.
In all fairness, Martin, it’s not just being too out-of-shape to complete Basic. Some of the women in my Navy boot camp company found out they were pregnant during the first few weeks and ended up requesting ELS. Occasionally, people will pop up with other health problems they didn’t know they had. For example, a professor of mine in college was in fabulous shape because he was an athlete in college. When he joined the Air Force and got to his officer basic training site, he found out he had asthma that had been triggered by something he turned out to be allergic to.
Also, when I was in in the early 90s, there was a sort of “chickening out” point during the first week. We all had to meet with some members of the recruiting command inspector general’s office to make sure that our paperwork was 100% in order, that we hadn’t been promised anything the Navy couldn’t (or wouldn’t) deliver, and that sort of thing. We also had the option of requesting an ELS for any or no reason, no questions asked, and one or two people chose to do so. We also got some stories of recruiters who had to face some unpleasant consequences for accepting too many people who did not meet standards.
When I was in Basic Training, around the same time you were, our drill sergeant addressed us in formation and asked if anybody just wanted to get out. I don’t know if this was related to some Army version of what you’re talking about, but at the time I thought it might be a cruel trick. I almost raised my hand anyway, but I didn’t (and am glad).
The easiest way to go home is to say you feel like killing yourself. That’s a straight ticket out of the military. Anything else, and you run the risk of getting stuck in a holding company where they give you never-ending chores for months before your paperwork gets done.
I know one person who got an ELS (from the Air Force), but it wasn’t voluntary. She made the mistake of keeping a few letters from her girlfriend and somehow her drill instructor (or whatever the USAF equivalent is) got ahold of them. The ELS did cause her problems with getting Financial Aid at college. Obviously she didn’t qualify for the GI bill, but brief military service wasn’t enough for her to be considered “independant” for aid purposes (she was 19). Since her parents disowned her and wouldn’t even fill out their section of the FAFSA she couldn’t even found out what her EFC was. She had an extremely difficult time trying to get an dependency overide.
Excuse my ignorance, but wouldn’t this be more of a medical or mental health discharge, rather than an ELS? If so, wouldn’t that affect you in civilian life?
This wasn’t US, but I sure wanted ou my first week in. The request was rejected for me, but another guy was sent home two days in. When I asked why it worked for him and not me, I was told (in a rare example of disclosure) that the instructors felt he “couldn’t make it” whereas they felt I could.
At the time i did not appreciate the vote of confidence.
In the military, you have to be in for 180 days before you qualify for GI Bill, VA or any other veteran’s benefits. Before you hit that point, you get an entry-level separation, which is sort of like annulling a marriage. If you’re out on an ELS, it’s like you were never in. Obviously, you don’t get the veteran’s goodies, including employment preference, but it’s not the end of the world like a bad-conduct or dishonorable discharge is.
I have a friend who enlisted in the Army after the 1991 Gulf War. He tried as hard as he could, but couldn’t deal with it - mostly the physical requirements.*
His Mom got her congressman involved and the arrangement that was worked out was that he retroactively flunked his entrance physical.
I drove her to the airport to pick him up and she didn’t even recognize him.
Saying you want to kill yourself is not a “straight ticket out of the military” for the US. It is, though, cause for concern on the part of the chain of command and the medical folks. Those who overcome that desire have managed to continue their service.
A friend of mine is in the Royal Marines. Leaving is a matter of convincing the officer that you really want to leave. They really don’t want people who don’t want to be there. He says that the success rate - expression of interest to passing out - is 1:10,000.
When I joined the Navy and went through boot camp back in 2002 they kept everybody, even if you admitted that you were gay after arriving in Great Lakes. Two guys in my division were openly gay and talked and had pictures of their boyfriend. The only guy that got out was because he had some critical asthma condition and was stuck in bed the entire time.
That was in boot camp.
After boot camp, in my AECF school there were two guys that got out: depression. One guy said he couldn’t take it and after 3 months or so after boot camp he got out. The other guy, like 6 months after boot camp got “sick and tired” of “it” and even cut himself to meet the requirements for depression. That was kinda funny since he did not think it would hurt when he cut himself. It did.
I’ve known bed wetters, people who cannot stop snoring, sleep walkers, even someone who was: bipolar, on Zoloft, and was afraid of deep-water. All in. Snorers were the worst, though.
I wish they would kick people out since keeping those “few” who are just like “fuck-it” and just waste their time and therefore waste your time.