U.S. Support for Israel: Yes or No?

Great Debates
61

>>(or any other non-Muslim country) compared to in their own, Muslim country, is, yes, a sack of pimply shite.

The US is not a religious state and it is not the countries organizations responsibility to accommodate the religious duties of its employees. Although they will when possible.

You do not hear me bitching about the surely far less tolerance of a Muslim country to accommodate/tolerate non Muslim religions.

What you claim is going on in the US is the exception, not the norm! It is the white man or woman in blue jeans and a tee shirt that is the TARGET in many Muslim countries. Such a person/family would not have near the opportunities that the Muslim has in the US- It is your assertion that is a crock of shit!

BTW, I said it is my right to be a raciest; I am not. Making factual statements that are not popular or don’t sit well with you don’t make me a bigot.

There are so many situations where people have non compatiable situations. How that situation is delt with is what is important.

Does one just claim that there is something wrong with the other persons, attack the others, act like a child and through a fit. The assertion that there is something wrong with a person or a country because they are different is a crock of shit.

The fact that so many Muslim and Arab countries wish to eliminate Israel is why we in the US will continue to support that country that has made more effort to get along with the surrounding countries than those countries have made with Israel.

62

Wrong. One does not need a special area to perform the prayers. Come to think of it, many folks already have a cordoned off area for such: it’s called their cubicle.

63

Isn’t it true that some branches of Islam are discriminated against in certain Muslim countries? I remember an Iranian couple my father worked with complaining about that in Iran. From that point of view there would be greater religious freedom for them here.

64

B&J - to reiterate for the third time: the part of your post that I took exception to was the assertion that Muslims are freer to practice Islam in the US than in Muslim countries. Clearly they are NOT.

I was not making any other comment on the US’s religious freedom in general, or any comparisons with religious freedom for non-Islam religions in Muslim countries. That is another debate altogether.

And this is NOT a criticism of the US or other western countries. It’s just common sense.

To flip it round: here in the UAE there is actually total religious freedom to practice Hinduism and Christianity. (Judaism I am not certain of to be fair - not whether there’s an issue as such, but I just don’t know any Jewish people here). However it is still far easier to practise Christianity in a country like the UK - where there’s a church on every corner (not a mosque) and Christian holidays tend to also be public holidays (Christmas, Easter), etc etc.

aaaphen - yes, I mentioned that in a previous post in this thread, there is a Shia/Sunni issue in Islam. But in the vast majority of Muslim countries there would still be more freedom and tolerance to practice a form of Islam than in the US - or any other “western” country.

In Iran, Muslims are predominantly shia. Here and in Saudi they are predominantly sunni. Some people have compared it to catholic v protestant, but I’m not sure how appropriate that is, I genuinely don’t know. Collounsbury or some other better informed poster spelled out the differences a while back, you might try doing an archive search if you want more information.

This is NOT a criticism of the US or other western countries. It’s just common sense.

To flip it round: here in the UAE there is total religious freedom to practice Hinduism and Christianity. (Judaism I am not certain of to be fair - not whether there’s an issue, but I don’t know any Jewish people here). However it is still far easier to practise Christianity in the UK - where there’s a church on every corner (not a mosque), Christian holidays tend to also be public holidays (Christmas, Easter).

Monty - you don’t need a separate area, but for many here it seems preferable. Muslim colleagues I have worked with seem to prefer to leave their office and go to a special prayer room, and if there aren’t separate male/female areas, the two genders often take in turns. Interestingly for haj in Mecca men and women all pray together. But at other times most of them seem to pray separately (they have “ladies’ rooms” in mosques here for example). It’s nicer for them to have a special prayer room, with mats provided, and an indication of the direction of Mecca to pray towards, etc.

Incidentally: I personally don’t see the need (in any religion) to pray 5 times a day. I personally do have some issues in the business environment - witness the day I was able to walk straight into a usually strictly guarded government building becase the guard in his sentry box was faced away from me praying. (I waited politely for a short time, then left my ID card on his counter, and went in).

However for Muslims the 5 times praying is an essential part of their life, which is why it is easier for them to work in a country where the goverment and majority of employers understand and faciliate that. Ditto fasting.

65

aaphen, a good point, and one which I admittedly had not thought of while making my post. Of course, it varies by country, and since you mentioned Iran, the answer is it does happen there. From the State Department’s International Religious Freedom Report:

(note Sufis, and I believe Sunnis as well, are considered a religious minority, for those items that mention such groups, since Iran is majority and fundamentally Shi’a)

Note that this does not cover the extreme official discrimination in Iran against members of the Baha’i faith, which was formerly a part of Islam. Baha’is are persecuted to a greater extent than any religious minority in Iran, but they are not Muslims, so I did not cover them. Also, there are other Muslim countries where members of minority Muslim denominations are discriminated against; the only one I can think of off the top of my head is Saudi Arabia, but you may want to poke around the report a little more if you’re interested.

66

You’re probably referring to the Bahai, who were and are very discriminated against in Iran. A lot of them expatriated during/after the revolution. Also, quite a few of them were wealthy well-connected land/factory owners with ties to the Shah and his regime.

Difficult to say if they left because of the revolution or their religious persecution. Anyway, purely anecdotally, all the Bahai’s I’ve met are very nice people. They also left with huge amounts of money/gold/etc.

67

Off Topic: As a bit of interest the Ba’hai HQ is in… Haifa, Israel. The temple with gardens high up on the hill overlooking Haifa is quite spectacular.

68

As an owner of several actual debate trophies, I can assure you that your “test” doesn’t qualify for even the most prosaic of debates, let alone a great debate. Seriously, learn how to argue a point. No offense meant.

69

B&I, you really do have the wrong end of the stick, here.

70

Xians and Hindus are Dhimma in UAE, and non-citizens. The issue becomes rather different it one is a citizen. The Gulf’s religious bigotry on many levels is not really a matter to be disputed, although it is the soft and lazy bigotry of the wealthy, rather like many folks in the West’s attitude towards Islam, soft, easy bigotry.

Perhaps. Sunni radicals prejudice towards the Shia is deep and violent.

Except in the Eastern provinces, where there are significent Shia minorities, local majorities even. In a very real sense 2nd class citizens, although religiously free to practice - in general Islam allows free practice so

A highly inexact approximation, but if one wants a rough analogy in re * political * tensions, it is workable.

Last item:

Sufi is a style of worship NOT a sect! Pls, can someone start to understand that. It is like charismatic worship in Xianity - you find Protestant and Catholic charismatics, e.g. A highly inexact analogy, but let me reiterate, one can be Sunni (that is follow one of the four schools) AND be Sufi, that is believe that certain Sufi practices (they are diverse, Sufi is a wide ranging term) are very ‘Kosher’ or better, Halal, if I may abuse both terms.

71

Thanks Collounsbury. BTW - what’s “Dhimma”?

72

I was under the impression that “Dhimma” were “People of the Book”, i.e. Jews and Christians (or rather, the rules that applied to them), and so were extended special protection under Islamic law. I was surprised to see Collounsbury categorize Hindus as Dhimmi’s, but perhaps I’ve misintepreted.

73

From what I remember of the Ask the Muslim Guy thread, the interpretation of “people of the book” was expanded to include Hindus as contact between Muslims and Hindus started becoming more common. Buddhism may also have been added at some point.

74

:smack:

75

Thanks Collounsbury, and goodbye. Oh well.

76

js_africanus

quote:
As an owner of several actual debate trophies, I can assure you that your “test” doesn’t qualify for even the most prosaic of debates, let alone a great debate. Seriously, learn how to argue a point. No offense meant

First, it is not my test, it was copied and pasted from an e-mail that was passed around to exemplify the reality of the US finding the use of profiling unacceptable, even in light of the reality of the situation. The part about airport screeners going over little old ladies was missing from the end of the mail.

Second, if you were paying attention, you would read that it was only part of an argument and that if I thought it a powerful point I would have argued the comment made first by clairobscur. Although it would be easy to debate to in light of recent events - watch the news tonight - bet we’ll see more.
Third. Seriously, I find it hard to believe you have won a trophy for anything - no offense meant - oh brother -

>>jjimm

B&I, you really do have the wrong end of the stick, here.

Another oh brother!?!?!?

That was helpful, would you like to tell me what a great debater you are right about now?

How about enlightening me about what parts I am on the wrong end of the stick - or what you are even trying to say.

thank you

77

There’s nothing I can say that hasn’t already been said to you in a clear fashion by other posters. You said:

Here’s istara on the subject:

That’s what you don’t seem to get.

78

Oh, and

A similar list could be constructed about white Westerners. The glurge you recycled is, while true, selective.

79

>>There’s nothing I can say that hasn’t already been said to you in a clear fashion by other posters.

Well I must have missed it because I did not see anything that could be called a pervailing argument, and nothing that countered my claim and was not debunked by other posts.

quote:

BTW, I am not a fool. I know that not all Arabs/Muslims are like that. Especially in the US, where they have more freedom to practice their form of religion and better their lives.

Here’s istara on the subject:
quote:

To reiterate for the third time: the part of your post that I took exception to was the assertion that Muslims are freer to practice Islam in the US than in Muslim countries. Clearly they are NOT.

That’s what you don’t seem to get.

I get it and answered it as did others - again, tell me where I was wrong! Nobody is prevented from practicing their form here and they are free to live, act, and work as any other person - this is not true in msny other countries. I’ll even go out on a limb and add in most Arab countries.
There are sevreal mosques that must have cost no less that $10 million a piece, within 10 miles of me. Nobody is checking to make sure they are practicing the “right” type of Islam, or firebombing them if they don’t do it just the way I say so. There is not a government and public mechanism in place to check on them

jjimm

quote:

First, it is not my test, it was copied and pasted from an e-mail that was passed around to exemplify the reality of the US finding the use of profiling unacceptable, even in light of the reality of the situation. The part about airport screeners going over little old ladies was missing from the end of the mail.

A similar list could be constructed about white Westerners. The glurge you recycled is, while true, selective.

Well lets hear it - out with it!

I don’t claim my government to be perfect, and having said that I will still be glad to butt heads with you on our (US) positions.

I’ll even help you: Jap treatment after 12/7/1941, the Indians in the 1800’s, the KKK, I’m sure we can add to this list too!

The truth is in how one deals with the problems - do we have a government that tries to correct the problems or continue the hate

80

I don’t have time to do some research that you should already know. Just look up “IRA”, “ETA”, “Red Hand Commandoes”, “INLA”, “UVF”, “UDA”, “Baader Meinhof”, “Red Army Faction”, etc. etc. Choose selected incidents and dates, and add the words “(d) White Christian Male” to each incident.

P.S. To quote someone, encase their words in {QUOTE} and {/QUOTE} (where you replace { and } with [ and ]). Or alternatively, hit the “Quote” button to the bottom right of their post.