Um, DavidB, we're in here...

The BBQ Pit
1

Taking Grienspace’s suggestion and moving this to the Pit, so as not to mess up Coosa’s thread anymore.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=55436&pagenumber=2

David, here’s my Number One major point: You tend to yell at people a lot. And when someone says, “Eh, David, you tend to yell at people”, you snap, “Oh, yeah? Show me where I EVER yelled at ANYONE!”

You yelled at Grienspace, just now. There’s no need to snap at him like that; he’s just trying to be helpful. And this:

–is rude. So is this:

You’re yelling at me. I’m not a RE-tard. Don’t talk to me as though I were.

All last spring and summer I watched you (and others) yell at Fundies in various religious threads. You snap at people. Instead of saying, “Um, would you mind proving that?”, you leap up off the couch and shout, “Oh, yeah? Prove it!” You use withering sarcasm more than most other posters.

You don’t seem to be able to see the person behind the handle. You didn’t seem to see that Jenkinsfan was lonely and wanted to talk to someone about religion, and was maybe a little fed up with the one-track minds of the folks over at the LBMB, and that maybe he was feeling like expanding his horizons a little bit by talking to some people who weren’t Christians. You only saw the pixels and the argument, and every time Jenkinsfan opened his mouth to say anything, if he expressed himself clumsily, you (and others) basically jumped all over him–yelled at him. Nobody seemed inclined to cut him much slack.

I’m talking about the whole feel of the threads, David, not chapter and verse with cites. They were ugly and unpleasant to read, all that snarling and yelling. And yes, I do know that the Fundies were doing their share of yelling, but it seems to me that much of the blood that was drawn came from your sword.

I already SAID I don’t have any cites to prove any of this, it’s just a general feeling. So why keep asking me? I thought I was putting it in a lightly humorous manner so as to encourage you to shrug the whole thing off. “Chalk another one up to the GD lightweight with the tinfoil hat and the White Queen in her sig.” Gaudere thinks it’s hilarious when people call her a Rottweiler. “Oh, yeah, I’m the Badass Big Dog with the baculum-reinforced penis, better get out of my way, punk.”

And I still assert that there are plenty of lurking SDMB Fundies like me, but they don’t dare post in this particular thread, right now, because they know you’ll yell at them. “You don’t REALLY believe the world was created in 6 days, do ya?” I don’t think it was a “ridiculous implication” at all. Why “ridiculous”? Maybe it’s “ridiculous” if you think that all Fundies just can’t keep their mouths shut about Jesus, and that therefore Fundie Silence equals absent Fundies. However, by far the majority of Fundies have no trouble at all in keeping their mouths shut. That’s one of the Top 10 sermon topics, you know–“get off your butt and share the Gospel! Don’t be ashamed of Jesus–He’s not ashamed of you!”

Stop and think for a moment of all the posters you know who have been here for longer than 6 months or so, and who have, say, fewer than 100 posts. Can’t think of any, offhand, can you? That’s because there’s a big division on the SDMB. There are people who post a LOT, like me, and then there are people who post only occasionally–mostly they just read threads in odd moments at the office. And I think there are more Fundies than anybody realizes in that group of people who only occasionally have something to say. I think they see all the sturm und drang going on in the religious GD threads, and that just gives them even more motivation to lurk instead of post.

But hey, it’s like with UFOs–I can’t prove they exist, and you can’t prove they don’t. So it’s a standoff.

My point about Jenkinsfan’s posting record was to say that I think he’s still around, lurking somewhere. It actually hasn’t been that long since he last posted, and when he WAS here, he was fairly deeply involved, I think. You know as well as I do how hard it is to give up the SDMB. But he’s been awful quiet lately, for him, so I think he’s just too burned out to post anymore.

You know, David, not every question has to be confronted, or answered, or defended. But I notice that the religious threads, and especially anything to do with conservative Christianity and creationism, seems to turn your crank faster and harder than anything else. I’ve seen you walk away from ugly fights, but you seem less inclined to let things slide when the Bible is involved. Again, no cite for it, just months of reading threads.

Also, this:

–would seem to imply that you believe “promoting Christianity” or “promoting creationism” to be the equivalent of “promoting ignorance”.

So. Huh. I’ve avoided getting involved in religious GD threads because I don’t want DavidB to yell at me, and here I am, in a religious GD thread, and DavidB is yelling at me.

I rest my case. :wink:

2

My introduction to DavidB was when he stopped just short of calling me a liar because after a 100 hour week I called a journal “Skeptical Enquirer” instead of “Skeptic”.

On the whole his posts and points are okay. But I agree with you that his attitude is occasionally brusque.

3

…and it occurs to me that perhaps I ought to clarify that my point about “how many posters can you think of who’ve been here longer than 6 months and have only 100 posts” is that there are more people than you might realize who keep a very, very low profile.

4

Before I say anything, Duck Duck, I would like to note for the record that I have always thought you were pretty cool. Still do. Not at all interested in pissing you off.

But I did wish to note:

That many people (I can’t speak for David B, although it would appear he is among them) do in fact consider a belief in Christianity to be an ignorant belief. Most particularly fundamentalist belief, which swallows the Bible whole. And there are many, many more people who consider creationism to be an exceptionally ignorant belief, especially since it has been so thoroughly and resoundingly disproved. So yes, to promote either one may be considered by many people to be promoting ignorance.
stoid

5

Stoid, I take your point that there are many, many people running around who hold certain religious views through intentional blinders – “God said it. I believe it. That settles it.” is as true for them about what some off-the-wall person-with-an-ax-to-grind about some contemporary issue has to say if he or she founds his or her point on prooftexting from Scripture as it is of the core doctrines of Christianity (which, by the way, is what the dude who invented “fundamentalism” was looking to protect, not the insistence that any extinct reptile must have died in Moses’ flood or that andygirl despite her clear statement to the contrary must be wilfully ignoring what God wants her to do – in the speaker’s opinion!

DDG has a quite valid point. There are a few of us around who can take the heat of GD and jump in to argue our points, trying to use inferential logic, analogy, probability analysis, and other acceptable modes of discourse to make our points. There are others whom the atmosphere of GD (not exclusively David’s doing, I might add) has scared off.

There is nothing wrong with a rational creationist metaphysic that accounts for the data of geology, paleontology, astronomy and astrophysics, and cosmology within its scope. There is nothing wrong with accepting the likelihood that what appears to be a slightly slanted historical account in ancient records is probably what it appears to be, and that that is as true for those of the Hebrew people as it is of the Yucatecs. There is a big difference between this sort of attitude and willful ignorance where one clings to the Bible as though it had some power to save one’s soul. (It doesn’t; its Editor does.) And some of the interpretations that fundamentalists place on Scripture deserve withering scorn.

But, kindly note, their advocates do not. The object is to fight ignorance, not to trounce the ignorant. (I think there should be far fewer ignorant people in the world – but the best way to achieve that is education, with some degree of empathy towards what matters to them helping to overcome the barriers to educating them.)

In short, DDG is overstating the case slightly, but has a truly valid point. If Atheist X is convinced that he or she has the right answer about matters religious, the proper response should be the same one as a Bible-pounder showing up gets: “Prove it!” I have a great deal of respect for the atheist posters that accept my belief structure as what I think and ask me intelligent questions about it, and listen to my arguments and spot the weak points in them, and allow me the same privilege in reverse.

Supercilious “I know the truth and you don’t” sounds just as obnoxious from either side of the fence. Avoid it if you want to change anyone’s view. Of course, if you just like to argue for argument’s sake, don’t let me stop you.

6

Stoid: “i do not think that word means what you think it does”- ie “ignorant”. Do you have any evidence that Christians are, as a whole, more Ignorant that other religious folks- or folks in general? I really do not think so. True- folks who have “faith”- by definition, “beleive” in something not backed up by science- so- by your definition- they are “Ignorant”? And why include only Christians? Do not the Jews beleive much the same as the Christians (at least the Orthodox & Fundie re the Creation)? Or do you think incluing the Jews would get you attacked for beung a racist? Or the Islamics, or the Hindu- all of whom have a belief that the world was created. I notice that many here, while blithly attacking Christian “fundies”- would never dare to attack Jewish or Moslem “fundies”- altho their beleif in the Creation is almost the same.

There are many well educated "fundies’ who know the facts of evolution & cosmology- and also beleive that G-d created it all. They simply put a wall between their faith & their reason. Some beleive in the “old earth” creation- which is unassailable by science.

However, DavidB is an excellent Moderator, intelligent, a good poster, and a good man (despite some things he has said about me). However, he shares with nearly all of us- a “blind spot”- where he does not act with impartiality or “reason”. Some other Moderators, and many posters have thier “blind spots” also (I know I do- it is just that I know I have mine, and can TRY to account for it- but I often fail). In this MB, it tends to be “Faith”- especially “Christian faith”. However, this just means that DavidB is just <gasp, shock horror> “human”.
:smiley:

7

I can empathize with David B. - entirely too many of our fundie posters witness rather than debate, and it can be extremely frustrating try to debate in response to that. I pointed out in one such debate over the summer that there is a long tradition of rational creationist theory, and fundies posting to this board would be well-advised to learn it before posting to this board. If fundies want to post on this board about such issues, they should be aware that the purpose of this board is to fight ignorance, and it is not only appropriate but respectful to marshall your arguments before posting. I have no problem whatsoever with David stomping all over people who don’t do that - in any topic.

However, if David is stomping on people who do that (and I have no idea whether he is or not), he conduct would be inappropriate - not as a moderator, but simply as a poster.

Sua

8

Not to rain on your parade, but I’ve been here as a registered member since last April and still only have 241 post…this should make 242…as many have stated before a LOT of people don’t post because they have nothing to contribute and just enjoy reading the posts of various persons here.

Now, I do agree that some of the moderators act a little testy at times but you still have to take into consideration the fact that they have to read every single post in whatever it is that they may be moderating! To me, this is enough to make anyone a bit testy at times.

In other words, lighten up a bit? Think about what **they think after reading the umpteenth post of a thread.

Now then, granted, I did not read the thread in question for the simple reason that all of these “Hey Mod” posts all seem to be just about the same. Either the person making the accusation is someone with no clue or else it seems to be someone who hasn’t taken the time to think things through clearly.

My two cents, for whatever it’s worth.

X

9

I just saw my post and all I can say is BOY did I ever screw up my coding!!!

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I just re-read DDG’s OP, and she makes no reference to David as a mod. She has a problem with his posting style as a poster, and the Pit is the appropriate forum to make such a complaint.

Sua

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I am to be reprimanded…my distinct apologies…

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And we’re in Da Pit, which apparently gives us free reign to make statements and observations based strictly on “general feeling”, let me just say. . .

Shut your yap-hole, you whiny schmoe.

Seriously though, Great Debates, as a forum, sort of has a different standard than IMHO, MPSIMS, or what have you. Posting there, much like posting here, almost requires a certain mindset if you’re going to post frequently and stay involved in discussions. Religon threads are going to be debated. Hotly. And (at least in the case of CvE) repeatedly.

If you don’t like it . . . well SD’s got, by my count, seven other forums for you to play with.

13

Promoting Biblically-literal, six-24-hour-days creationism is promoting ignorance. I’m sorry, and I’m sure it offends some people to hear it, but it’s a fact. The same scientific processes that have resulted in the discoveries that allow you to type your words on your computer and have an audience of thousands read it around the globe have yielded results that tell us certain things about the origin of the universe, the Earth, and the development of life. If someone is going to deny the results in one instance, they better be able to justify not denying them in another. It takes a deliberate and willful ignorance to believe that a supernatural being created the universe and everything in it in 144 hours 6,000 years ago, and I have little respect for people who choose to believe such a thing.

14

Really? That hasn’t been my experience. We don’t get that many Jews or Muslims (not Moslems- that spelling is considered insulting) preaching creationism and apologetics around here, but when we do, plenty of people jump on them.

The problem, DITWD, is that you are trying to prove that people around here have a special animus against Christians, but it just doesn’t hold up. For example, you make these claims that some unnamed someone-or-other asks a lot of questions just to harass people, but both David and I have asked you to provide examples, but you can’t do it. And now you make more vague, unsupported claims about what people would or would not do given the opportunity. But they have been given the opportunity, and they attacked fundies of all stripes, regardless of their religious beliefs.

I think you just need to accept the fact that people around here aren’t anti-Christian. They’re anti-ignorance. If most of the ignorant people around here happen to be Christians, that’s scarcely our fault.

-Ben

15

Great Debates is the forum for witnessing. I don’t think you can complain about people choosing to witness instead of debate, especially on a matter of faith.

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You know, there are scientists, who know more about physics & such then the sum toto of ALL your knowledge, who do beleive that very thing. And also accept evolution & cosmology, and etc. Note, that the “old universe” theory, where G-d creates a universe & a world that is already old (which given an omnipotent diety, is no problem)- can not be disproved by any scientific means, as it accepts all the "laws’ of science.

17

That’s nice. Can you give me a few names? Just to back up your claim, you understand. It doesn’t mean I’ll respect them any more.

Oh, also, you don’t know how much I know about those things, so you’re making unwarranted assumptions.

Also, that isn’t how “toto” is used in a sentence, so don’t try to make yourself appear smarter by using misplaced Latin words; it really makes you look dumber.

Finally, the fact that one knows a lot about something doesn’t preclude them from making incorrect conclusions.

**

Whatever. Given the choice between an universe that really is billions of years old, and a universe that is 6,000 years old but was made to look billions of years old by some tricky invisible man, the safe bet is on the former.

18

You’re right, that’s what the forum description says. But I submit to you that, after the fundie posts his/her witness post, and some heathen challenges it, if the fundie replies he or she is now debating. If the fundie wants to debate, it is appropriate and respectful to have one’s facts and beliefs in order.

Sua

19

I agree, if the fundie says that they are going to participate in a debate, they should follow the rules of debate.

20

While not being a fundamentalist, or having much sympathy for them as a group of people, I do have to agree with DDG. DavidB, whether he intends it or not, often comes off as rude and sarcastic. Or, at least, that’s how he appears to me, and while perhaps there are others who interpret him differently, I suspect I’m not alone in my views (at the very least DDG apparently agrees). The first two quotes DDG included both appear to be written in a patronizing tone that attempts to belittle the person they’re addressed to. I doubt anyone would use that tone in a formal debate setting, so why use it in GD? There’s no doubt that the war against ignorance is worth fighting, but I see no reason to be rude while doing it.

Also, while it has nothing to do with religion, he doesn’t always back up his claims.