The ACLU responds:
“The First Amendment is a critical part of our democracy, and it protects vile, hateful, and ignorant speech. For this reason, the ACLU of Virginia defended the white supremacists’ right to march.”
Stop being willfully ignorant and be honest in your arguments.
If it is Che it needs to be a not very focused or effective itinerant wanderer but who managed to be stylish and romantic.
Another ironic post.:rolleyes:
The people that are carrying Nazi flags in those reenactments are pretending to be people who certainly were calling for genocide.
Just like an actor in a movie about WWII isn’t a Nazi because they dress up as one, but the character that they are playing certainly is a Nazi, and does believe the stuff that the symbols represent.
So, if you want to make the argument that these swastika wavers were just re-enacting some other event that had realy Nazi’s in it, go for it.
I did not think that was the case, and feel fairly strongly that they chose to use this symbolism and display it publicly because they believe in the ideals that it represents.
Do you have any reason to believe that they were carrying these symbols of hate and intolerance for a different reason than they identified and agreed with the ideology of the nazis’?
Just FYI, in the light of day I am out of this thread. It’s a very nice day today, and I have better things to do than to endlessly parse Nazi symbols to make them seem not-nice rather than murderously evil. Especially after one of them killed a person and wounded others, including the wife of a board member. If you feel you have won a victory because none of the Nazis said “kill the Jews” loudly enough for anyone to overhear, well, victory is yours, I guess.
Also, just FTR, I think you’re one of the only intelligent Trump supporters who posts here. I value the perspective you bring to the board, even if you are being deliberately obtuse in this instance.
I haven’t seen this posted here yet, it’s a fundraiser for those hurt by the car-ramming terrorist attack in Charlottesville: Link to GoFundMe for Charlottesville victims
Needless to say, feel free to help out in any other way you can.
I hope Mrs. Sailboat is not too badly injured and will recover fully.
When was the last time you actually saw one?
Oh. 1969.
Enjoy your Sunday, and thanks for the kind words.
American Nazis are real Nazis. In interviews they politely explain how Hitler was great, and when asked about American Jews they say they will be encouraged to leave “one way or another.”
This is the first place on the internet I came to this morning to check on Sailboat’s wife. I completely realize that he has much more important things to do than post updates on an internet board, though.
Here’s hoping she’s okay.
On the subject of Che Guevara, who I admit to being pretty ignorant about, I think it would be useful to make a distinction between people who commit horrific acts and ideologies that condone those acts.
I’m not sure if Che’s ideology explicitly codified the murder of dissidents, or to what extent murder was clearly laid out in his manifesto, but for the sake of my analogy, let’s assume murdering thousands was a biproduct of his revolution, not a codified component. That makes Che Guevara a murdering scumbag, but perhaps the ideology that drove his reprehensible actions was not inherently reprehensible (again, I don’t know either way.) So in some cases, I could see a way that someone could sympathize with an ideology while not sympathizing with the tactics used to implement it. If according to the claims here, Che Guevara was a mass murderer, than those carrying his symbol are irresponsible and ignorant at best, but I wouldn’t necessarily assume they supported the murder part. When I see someone wearing a Che Guevara shirt, my default assumption is they don’t actually know anything about Che Guevara.
That’s basically impossible in the case of Hitler. The Nazi regime and ideology is about as explicitly white supremacist as it gets in the most famous way possible. There’s no way to disavow Hitler’s actions but embrace the Nazi ideology, because Hitler’s ideology was explicitly, murderously anti-Semitic and his actions were a perfect expression of it.
I don’t know if my point is clear, but in my mind, at least, there should be some distinction between an ideology and its implementation.
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia]
Also, just FTR, I think you’re one of the only intelligent Trump supporters who posts here. I value the perspective you bring to the board, even if you are being deliberately obtuse in this instance.
[/QUOTE]
I am really upset about this particular instance, though I am starting to come down based on HD’s last response. but in general, I agree with Larry. There are certain posters I expect that kind of thing from, but they don’t upset me, because I expect awful things from them. HD is not one of those posters.
I consider it a very bad sign that we haven’t heard from Sailboat. I know I’m not alone that I can’t stop thinking about him. 
Elvis, FWIW, the last time I saw a Che Guevara shirt was roughly 2002. I went to a hippie school-within-a-hippie school (Residential College at University of Michigan) and the shirts weren’t uncommon. But this is a school with classes that openly endorsed Marxism. Socialism was kind of the trendy thing. It was definitely more about the ideology of socialism than the support of violent tactics. Those kids were way too stoned for violence.
This is actually a problem I keep running into when having discussions with conservatives, the idea that what’s good or bad should be governed by categorical imperatives in all cases… very Kantian, but not at all consistent with how I view the world. The most tiny, minute aspects of context are relevant to my judgment about what something means and how we should respond to it. So arguments of the ‘‘well leftists wear Che Guevara t-shirts’’ variety really come off as irrelevant to me. Che Guevara is a different thing, not because it’s inconvenient to my argument, but because everything is a different thing from every other thing. Analogies may help frame an argument but they can only take us so far.
I admit that some arguments to that effect were made in this thread.
But that does not appear to be current ongoing argument. It’s all about minimizing what these Nazi “protesters” did. You have them called just “not nice.” You hear their symbols being treated as not meaning what they obviously mean. We have them using the chants used on Jews as not condoning violence. We have looking for excuses for why the terrorist might not be a Nazi. We have arguments about how the far left is just as bad.
And then, let’s look at how the right reacts to BLM. Do they see most of them as good upstanding individuals who are championing for things they disagree with? No, they’re violent thugs, based on the small amount of violence. Antifa is a terrorist organization for the same reason.
Normally it takes one act of violence for you to stop with the freedom of speech arguments. But here you are still making it. Sure seems like you are just using it to defend the awful things on the right.
And don’t get me started with the whole SJW thing, where the right is constantly arguing they should not be allowed to protest someone coming to speak on their colleges. Conveniently, the left is always violent, while the right isn’t.
Just in general, it’s hard to think the right cares about actual freedom of speech. At least, the more vocal right.
Oh, and Sailboat, I am so sorry. This shit should not have happened. I really do hope she’s okay. And I hope you’re just staying away because you know it would make you angry to read this stuff.
This terrorist is one of those guys who make me hope hell does indeed exist.
That would indeed be rather comforting to know that they were “only” advocating mass deportations of citizens. Perhaps they could display a banner that says: Hey everyone, we only support some of the NAZI policies, not all of them. I’m sure that would clear things up nicely.
So I saw a GoFundMe page had been set up for the woman who was killed yesterday. I went to it, and saw this little nugget of hate dropped into the comments by a dude named Sam Kieffer:
Screenshot of the page, as I can’t imagine her family/the page’s organizers will let this shit stay up.
Matching the picture and name, I found his FB profile, so he’s a legit person, unafraid to present has scumbaggery to all without hiding behind fake names.
Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with people?
Umm… some people are scum?
That’s what’s wrong with people, some of them are really fucked in the head.
My thoughts are with Sailboat & his family.
It was the duty of all Aryan women of childbearing age in the Reich to produce as many master-race babies as possible.
At least it’s an ethos.
You’re a real piece of work.
Some of us care very deeply about freedom of speech, so much so that we tolerate the occasional chants about “what do we want? Dead cops” or “blood and soil” in order to ensure that everyone has the right to express themselves.