United Nations Debt

I understand that U.S. is considered in default for not paying our United Nations dues.

What I don’t understand, is how the United States could be considered to be in “debt” noting the trillions of dollars paid out the last century through our unparalleled generosity. If I recall correctly, Finland was the only country to repay the loans after World War I, billions of dollars of legitimate debt has been written off. The Marshall plan pumped billions of dollars to war torn europe after the second war, not counting the extraordinary loans of money and materials given to the former Soviet Union.

So, what’s the deal, is the rest of the world ungrateful?

How does the fact that some other contries don’t pay some of their legitimate obligations impact the fact that we also welsh on some of our debts ?
I’m not sure that we were careful enough in explaining to the rest of the world that the US always charges full price, cash on the barrelhead, for any good deeds that the nation may inadvertantly carry out in the pursuit of it’s own economic and political goals. Why would you expect both gratitude AND cash payments ?
Besides, what with the new faces in Washington it’s not clear that the treaty that ended world war one is even still valid.

Well, we’re not in debt to the other countries. We’re in debt to the UN.

Repaid the loans to who? For the most part of WW I Finland wasn’t even independent and had almost nothing to do with the war.
Marshall plan wasn’t about just generosity there were other motives.
How much money/materials were given by USA to USSR during the Cold War?

The U.N., last time I checked, is composed chiefly of other countries.

We apparently loaned over 10 billion dollars during world war I, little of that which was ever paid back. With interest, and adjusting for inflation, I’m sure that would be a hefty amount and more than enough to pay any dues owed to an organization that seems at odds with our interests anyway.

Overall, it seems clear we are owed far more than we could ever owe.

Yes, but it does not belong to the countries alone!

It would be like if you and your friends had a club, and paid dues to be in this club fund-for various things. Say you got behind on your CLUB dues. But, at the same time, you had lent a club member, as a friend, money for something not related to the club. See what I mean?

:rolleyes:

I think what you had was a booming war-time economy and hundreds of thousands of troops returning – they needed work. What better way than to deploy standard J.M. Keynes economic theory.

The Marshall Plan was about investing money in the creation of markets so the US could continue its rise as the dominant Capitalist power.

The emphasis thereby being ‘self-serving’ rather than “unparalleled generosity”.

I think that is factually correct, in an economic theory kinda sense :wink:

But it would be a simple matter to say "Yes, we recognize that we owe X amount of dollars to the general UN fund, and we’ll be more than happy to forward those monies just as soon as all monies owed by virtually the entire world is payed back.

I’ve no idea why Finland incurred such a large debt to the United States during the first world war. To their credit, they payed it all back, with interest. Every other country defaulted, essentially.

It just gets in my craw when I hear anyone say we “owe” money to an international organization. The US saved europe’s ass not once, but twice in the last century, defeating Japan as well, winning the cold war, etc. etc., so forgive me if I’m skeptical.

First of all, the “unparalleled generosity” of the United States over the past century has generally been the result less of humanitarian motives than blatant self-interest and kowtowing to the economic priorities of large multinational corporations. The Marshall Plan, while indeed providing considerable help to get Europe back on the rails after WWII, was motivated to a considerable extent by the desire to expand the market for US production during a period where there were many here worried that the high output of American factories would suffer from a lack of a ready market - of course, the postwar boom in American consumer spending largely quelled these fears. Loans to the former Soviet Union have been similarly motivated by a desire to promote so-called “free trade”, and the immiseration of much of the Russian population over the past decade (levels of poverty, hunger and homelessness are orders of magnitude greater than they ever were under Communism) speaks volumes to the “generosity” of the US. Of course, Russia’s problems are also the result of huge inefficiencies and corruption within the country, but many of the culprits are those who have the closest ties to western business. Nor was Communism perfect - far from it - but its decline has seen many Russians become much worse off.

Also, there are plenty of other areas where American intervention has been even more devestating for the locals, whether that intervention has involved direct military force or covert aid to local insurgents. The populations of Guatemala, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Chile, Panama, Grenada, and the republics of former Jugoslavia, to name the most obvious examples, have little to thank America for.

Now regarding the UN debt. The US has been behind in the payments required to make to help keep the body functioning for about the last fifteen years. The US has some rather sound grievances to make against the UN payment schedule, given that its share of the UN administrative budget was, until December 23 last year, 25% of the $1.1 billion required to run the UN annually, and 30.4% of the UN peacekeeping budget of $3.0 billion. The reason the US fell behind in its pasyments was that Congress (which has many members hostile to the UN anyway, led by Sen. Jesse Helms) decided that the US was being asked to pay too much compared to other nations. On the aforementioned date in December, the UN General Assembly voted to reduce the US share of the admin budget to 22% (which is what Congress wanted) and to reduce its share of the peacekeeping budget to 26% by 2003 (just a bit more than the 25% demanded by Congress). At the time:

“Sen. Joseph R. Biden Jr. (D-Del.), the ranking minority member of the Foreign Affairs Committee, said today he is confident Congress will approve the deal if the Bush administration embraces it. ‘It’s a very good deal,’ Biden said. ‘I can’t imagine them not embracing it.’”
(Washington Post, 24 December 2000)

So in December everything seemed to be coming along, and it looked like the US was about to relinquish its deadbeat status. But early this year, the US lost its seat on the UN Human Rights Commission, and there was much gnashing of teeth in Washington, with many people pointing out the injustice of the US being barred entry to a commission that included countries like Sudan and Libya. What these critics failed to note is that the US is part of the Western Group, which is allowed three members on the HRC, and it was replaced not by some third world dictatorship, but by Sweden. This idea that the US, by simple virtue of its size, economic power and military strength, has the right to sit of every UN commission, especially when it doesn’t pay its dues, is the sort of unilateral thinking the world body was designed to overcome. Also, as the Baltimore Sun pointed out on May 13 this year:

“The Europeans, and others at the United Nations, know something most Americans don’t know - that despite lots of high-sounding human rights rhetoric, the United States routinely refuses to sign or ratify important human rights agreements,”

including the Convention on the Rights of the Child,the Convention on the Rights of Women, the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, and the treaty against the use of anti-personnel land mines. Anyway, after the US lost its seat on the HRC, Congressional Republicans threatened to continue to withhold about $240 million in the dues that had been approved by Congress after the UN’s December changes to US payment obligations.

Fast-forward to early this month (August), and UN Secretary General Kofi Annan was wondering why the US still had not paid its dues, despite promises to do so back in December and the final authorization for a $582 million payment as part of the Foreign Relations Authorization Act in May this year. The Senate has signed off on this, as had the House, but the loss of the HRC seat led to a House amendment to withhold the aforementioned $240 million unless the US regains its HRC seat next year.

So there you have it. Whatever your take on America’s “unparalleled generosity” to the world, the UN, like most “clubs”, prefers that its members pay their dues, no matter how important they are to the team.

michael.

I would argue that the United States is still among the most generous of all nations in history, by a long shot.

Still, that isn’t really the issue, of course. Whether we were altruistic in loaning money to the international community is unimportant, and not germaine to this discussion.

Russia, for example, defaulted on czarist bonds during the revolution, and has repudiated them ever since. It’s still a sticking point with negotiations for loans today. Who wants to lend money to a deadbeat?

But I note we’ve not stopped loaning money to the former soviet union, largely because their ass is in the wind, and they’ve got nukes. Given the extraordinary loans and grants the US pays out all over the world it seems petty to stick the US for more, that’s all.

<hijack>

“Yep, we’ll loan you money at a reasonable interest rate as long as you contract to buy the goods from us, borrow more money to service the loan *from us *and let us deploy troops or, at least, have a little CIA presence in your country just as insurance against your ‘loan-friendly’ Government becoming unpopular with the people when the repayments kick in”

Nothing wrong with it but have you ever asked yourself why the US is the economic Superpower ?

</hijack>

This is an apples-and-oranges question. “We gave lots of money to other countries, so why should we have to pay our overdue debts?”

Tedster: Yes, the U.S. is a very generous county. It isn’t the only one; I happen to live in Canada, which provides more foreign aid per capita than the U.S. and has always paid its UN dues on time. Foreign aid is not a loan, it’s a gift to people who are so desperately poor that you, if you are an American who has never been to a “developing nation”, probably can’t even conceive it. Most people, when they give a gift, don’t expect to get repaid.

The rest of the world is unbelievably grateful to the U.S.; it is also unbelievably poor with respect to the U.S. The amount I pay on my mortgage every two weeks is someone’s annual salary in West Africa, and I’m below the poverty line in Canada.

You own a fucking house and you’re below the poverty level? What kind of [deleted][deleted] bunch of [deleted]…

I can’t even finish. Hell, I’m so far above the poverty level I’m broke.

I’m not suggesting that foreign aid should be paid back. No, the legitimate debt that has been blown off by the rest of the world is quite sufficient to pay our just dues to the UN for quite some time to come. The foreign aid should provide evidence of our “good guy” status, though.

I’ve been all over the globe and agree that poverty ‘over there’ makes our ‘poverty’ laughable. Still that isn’t the issue.

So a proper role for the United Nations is to serve as a debt collection agency for the U.S. government ? That’s an interesting theory, but I’ll bet you a nickel that there’s nothing to support it in the UN charter.

This is a pretty obvious candidate for Great Debates

bibliophage
moderator, GQ

Of course the UN charter doesn’t allow for that, but we’d certainly have plenty of maneuvering room, since just about every country in the world owes us money from World War I, World War II, the cold war conflicts, etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseum…

It’s not going to happen, I’m not naieve. But every time you hear about the US owing “back dues” on the UN, remember the trillions loaned all over the world over the years, and think how pathetic the concept is, in truth. That’s all.

Tedster, I think you’re missing an important point.

We agreed to pay dues.

We did not.

That is what puts us in debt.

Our loans to other nations have nothing at all to do with that.

We agreed to loan the rest of the world billions.

They agreed to pay it back.

They did not.

It has everything to do with that.

The only thing I’m missing is an incredible amount of money owed the US Treasury, and by extension, US Taxpayers.

And two wrongs make a right? Is that the way to seize the moral high ground? To say: If you won’t do the right thing, I won’t either?

That’s not how I want to live my life.