About a 50% suicide rate according to the psychiatrist with whom I spoke.
This is not true. They are in fact sex hormones.
Try harder.
The Shodan Effect in action right here.
Differences in mental alignment, thoughts, feelings, or beliefs is not the same as mental illness. Have you ever even taken a psychology course? Because if you did, you certain didn’t learn from it.
No, better than the current standard of care as endorsed by major medical agencies around the world. Which was what I said. Stop trying to weasel out by moving the goalposts.
…so ironically, you would deliberately choose the path that does not have the greatest endorsement by medical science. I guess that begs the question of what happens when a parent puts their own ignorance, prejudice, and fear ahead of their child’s welfare.
Says the person who rejects the science. Irony meter = 11.
Now really, what do your hysterics actually accomplish? For goodness sake.
They are not transitioning hormones, a distinction I believe I made a few time.
I also see you trimmed the quote from Wikipedia to omit the sentences right afterwards. Here, let me include them, since we all know most folks will never click the link.
(emphasis added)
I did not intentionally leave off anything. I was quoting the source that said they were hormones. And ok, I guess they aren’t “transitioning hormones” but they are in fact sex hormones. All I was responding to was the claim that there were no sex hormones involved.
ETA: I am not trying to imply anything nor offer an opinion.
You made my day. I can now say, proudly, that David Crystal laughed at a linguistic joke I made.
Just curious: have you tested this hypothesis? I’m sure there are driving simulation websites of some sort which test your alertness and reflexes. You could try one of them out sober and then after 3 or 4 drinks and see what the results were.
I’m not saying that you are WRONG about yourself… but it’s hard not to be skeptical.
C’mon - not all hormones are sex hormones.
The gonadotropins are NOT sex hormones, they are control hormones - they regulate the production and release of sex hormones. The ones used as puberty-blockers are gonadotropin agonists, which means they decrease the production and release of sex hormones. That is how they work - by suppressing sex hormones in the body.
Ok, so it’s a hormone that regulates sex hormones. The potential side effects of administering such hormones are pretty serious. I am responding more to the general tone here than puberty blocking therapy is totally benign and without risk. Messing around with natural levels of sex hormones, either by decreasing or increasing, is not at all without risk.
I can.
“What she really wanted” is an important consideration. However if “what she really wanted” is something I’m convinced it’s harmful for her, I, like any other responsible parent, would no go with it.
(MASSIVE SNIP)
- They may not be permanent, I fucked that one.
- The use in trans people and their effects on their ideas/decisions/delusions/bodies/fertility are not that clear. You’re much more than simply “giving them time to think”, you’re already accepting their idea.
- Post-op trans people have similar gigantic rates of suicide as pre op, even when in the most welcoming of environments. Evidence always point to being trans as having a high risk of siucide, regardless. Maybe there’s a hint there.
- Job discrimination, harassment, forcing adults to dress in a way they don’t want (with exceptions) is wrong. The looks-like-a-lumberjack-guy wants to wear dress to Wal-Mart? I don’t give a flying fuck and would defend him if somebody gave him a hard time.
- You used to be afraid of transgender people??? WTF?? I’m glad you’re ok now, we reguar folks never were. Maybe a bit puzzled when we were seven, but never afraid.
- We treat depression BECAUSE, among other things, it makes people kill themselves. The treatment reduces that tendency. What you want is NOT to treat another condition the causes astronomic suicide rates because it’s THAT CONDITION which causes suicide.
- Do you not know the definition of normal? Five-fingered hands are normal. Two feet are normal, seeing all colors is normal. Hope it helps.
Why? I’m beating you without breaking a sweat.
Why? Does Shodan espouse treatment that doesn’t reduce suicide rates in high-risk populations? That bastard
Psychology? Yes. Also, my wife’s an M.D. and a psychotherapist. I learnt a lot, I’m sorry it contradicts your beliefs.
Of course what you say is true, but up to a degree. At some point quirk becomes illness.
You said “Because parents always know best, everywhere.”
I answered “Better than you about MY kids? Of course”.
Since your “greates endorsement path” doesn’t treat her condition and simply accepts and endorses a life with massively high (higher than concentration camp inmates) risk of suicide it’s what I’d call the gold standard of care. If “she has accepted her condition and is happy with it” is the best you can offer, sorry. You wouldn’t accept it for anything else.
Maybe you should get your irony meter checked. Or maybe you accetp it not working properly.
My hysterics work perfectly, yours? not so much. You had to chase people in an “unpopular opinions” thread and then accuse others of hysterics.
Little Nemo is right, though. If someone wants to start yet another thread about the trans topic, go ahead. I might go there. I’m done here.
By the definition you offered earlier, Inuit people are not normal. Nor are people of native Tasmanian descent. Are you comfortable considering people hailing from very rare ethnic groups “not normal” or “abnormal”?
No one has denied there is some risk - I even linked to a list of known side effects. The point is that this is not some exotic, rarely used drug. These drugs (because they mimic chemical controls for the body) are used for many different problems and by millions, nay, tens of millions of people. Used properly, under medical supervision, the risks are minimal and controllable. Would you object to used a corticosteroid inhaler to control a child’s asthma? Would you object to the use of insulin for a diabetic? Both of those medications are also considered hormones, can also have dire side effects if mis-used. They’re also pretty safe if used properly and under medical supervision.
If the alternative to a hormone blocker is a child engaging in self harm or possible suicide it seems a fair trade-off, at least until the kid goes through a course of psychological therapy. A kid obtaining black market puberty blockers and NOT being under medical supervision while taking them is also a problem, and more likely to result in significant problems.
The most likely long term side effect of a puberty blocker is the kid winding up a couple inches taller than they would have otherwise due to having more years for the long bones of the body to grow. Short term side effects are just that, short term, and cease when the medication is discontinued. And, I might add, they appear to be no more onerous than what a typical woman endures during menopause - which is considered perfectly natural.
The only reason people are raising dire warnings is because the whole matter deals with subject matter that touches on sex and gender.
I never objected to the use of these puberty blockers. Not at all. What I was doing was responding to what I saw as characterization of the drugs used as benign and totally unlike !sex hormones! If I was mistaken, I apologize. But please don’t put words in my mouth.
Suicide is not only acceptable, it is highly desirable.
I have been placed on “Psych Hold” twice over that one.
They never hear the “life long” or “when all hope is lost” - just “OMG! He thinks self destruction is not only OK - he actually intends to do it!”
Last one ended 5/1/17 after I sent the cops home with a smile.
Had to be embarrassing to the twits (University of California).
You throw out FUD without any experience or citation, and bounce off that FUD to make an easily falsifiable claim that it’s just an “idea” and not a medical condition.
I’m sure you’ll post all your citations to refute work done on transgender youth in this regards. Because my meta-study shows there has never been enough evidence to show that one way or another, but since there is a proven benefit to the quality of life, one can surmise that the risk of suicide is less. And BTW, your focus on operations is sort of silly, and demonstrates ignorance about the whole process.
Maybe you don’t understand causality.
Indeed?
The actual psychologists, physicians, health care workers, and counselors I work with, at several different major hospitals both in the area and around the world, see things differently than your “M.D. wife.”
No, that is being incorrect about what I actually said, which is quoted following:
Would you like to address how you cannot understand that the subject in that sentence was not me personally, but the weight of current medical opinion?
In plain English.
- Neither you nor I determine if your child is transgender. They were, like Lady Gaga says, born that way. Or not.
1a) Since your grasp of the conversation seems to be tenuous at best, note that I am not offering Lady Gaga up as a citation. She is not your physician, nor anyone’s physician.
-
Choosing to ignore an actual medical condition or trying to suppress it by your home-grown corporal punishment or other conversion techniques is highly likely to fail. It certainly will never make them no longer transgender.
-
By not treating this condition with actual psychologists and physicians, you run a greater risk of self-harm and suicide for your child. Kudos.
All of the above are accepted in medical practice. If your “M.D. wife” is an actual psychotherapist, ask her to give you a copy of WPATH7.
I sincerely doubt it. What’s the over-under on the number of additional posts he makes after being “done?”
Yeah, maybe to the person committing suicide. But that’s circular reasoning. How is suicide highly desirable to anyone other than the person contemplating it?
Parents, however, can be very wrong about what’s best for their children. Consider all those parents in history that, with the best of intentions, have married off daughters who haven’t even reached puberty yet to much older men - they may have meant well but did they do well?
I prefer “mistaken” to “fucked” - make note of it and carry on.
I have known a few, very few, people who started down the path to transition and after therapy decreed they were NOT transgender but something else and stopped going down that path. Entering into therapy is NOT obligating anyone to do anything permanent or further along that path. I don’t know if anyone is tracking how many people ping the system by getting some therapy along these lines but later conclude they aren’t trans - maybe they’re genderqueer, or homosexual, or a transvestite, or, hell, I don’t know, something else. Is anyone doing any research on this? I have no idea, just a couple anecdotes which, as we know, are not data.
Someone expressing transgender identity is definitely not statistically in the norm and whether actually trans or not might likely benefit from therapy regardless.
As I said, it could be that whatever makes a person transgender also carries a risk of other dysfunction with it. For decades transgender people were dismissed and marginalized and ignored - maybe we need to do some more research on them. Maybe there is something better than what we’re currently doing, but right now it’s the best we have to offer.
Keep in mind, too, that NO ONE, at least in the western world, is being forced into any sort of permanent gender transformation. Indeed, people have to worked very hard for a very long time in order to get approval for it. This isn’t something foisted on people against their will.
All of which is to your credit. However, there is a minority of people who react to transgender people with extreme violence. Sort of like a “gay panic” defense of murder, but even more so.
Even if transgender people are delusional (which is NOT a position I hold, but a hypothetical for this paragraph) that does not excuse the discrimination and violence that have been historically directed against them. I don’t give a flying fuck if a looks-like-a-lumberjack guy wears a frock and pumps and makeup and jewelry but quite a few other people do - and not in a good way.
I don’t know how old you are, but I date back to the 1960’s when homosexuals were equated with child molesters and treated much the same, and the transgender didn’t even make the radar. “Those people” were freaks, monsters, perverts, criminals, and dangerous - and by that I mean anyone violating gender norms. That is the world I was raised in. Of course I feared anyone not adhering to “gender norms”, that is what I had been taught from infancy. Only by going out in the real world and meeting “perverts” in my 20’s did I learn differently. (Well, my lesbian sister started the process - she was homosexual but not in any way I could see bad, evil, dangerous, or criminal so it got me thinking maybe I’d been taught a falsehood).
Is it transgenderism that causes suicide, or the abuse suffered by them as a routine matter, or is it a co-morbid condition with something else?
If attempting to re-program a person’s gender identity doesn’t seem any more successful than gender transition therapy either way we’re looking at carnage, right? Well, even if we find that transgenderism is fatal in 50% of cases then there is still the matter of making those peoples’ lives as pleasant and functional as possible for the time they are still alive. Does transition therapy make them happier? (Define “happy” however you choose). Does it make them more functional? (Hold a job, pay their bills, care for themselves, etc.)
Oddly enough, I do in fact qualify as “abnormal” under one of those conditions you list. There is no cure for my abnormality. On the other hand, I don’t have people calling me delusional, I am not denied housing, I can get a good job (although some jobs are closed to me due to that abnormality), I don’t have to risk people beating me up due to my abnormality.
Not all abnormal traits are “fixable”. You can’t always make a person normal. The solution is to try to make them as functional as possible and remove senseless bigotry in law and custom.
(Ironically, that abnormality has lead to people accusing me of being a male-to-female transexual, which would be funny if it wasn’t also sad.)
Then the question becomes “how do we treat the illness”. If we can’t cure an illness then the question becomes “how do we maximize quality of life?”.
IMHO, No, you’re really not.
(3 cheers to Una for continuing to fight the good fight.)
Speaking as one of the left behind - it’s not. It only makes one person “happy”, and since that person is dead their opinion is meaningless once the deed is done. It causes a fuckton of pain to everyone else.
I’m slowly coming to the view humanity created its own destiny in a way none of us understood.
It started for me with the acceptance of how lead in fuel caused increased criminality for a few decades, but now I’m starting to accept we’ve been collectively off the rails - and increasingly so - for a couple of thousand years. Also because of lead, but increasingly so as the industrial revolution took hold.
Got to the point where I wonder if lead in pipes and the atmosphere was the driver for so much human development.
tbh, I find the idea fascinating anyway, so maybe that’s why …