Yes! The ex-boyfriend table at the reception! I have sat at that at more than one wedding. It’s an absolute blast. My only regret is that I got the table to sing “I knew the bride when she used to rock and roll” at only one wedding, and then pretty quietly.
Other ex-boyfriends are wimps. 
Sua
I’ve been on both sides of this. I’ve been the person who didn’t break it off firmly enough, and I’ve been the pathetic, clingy stalker. Geeeeagh. I wish I could erase a few months of my life–not my proudest moments.
Cranky goes off to write down another reason she is glad she’s out of the dating scene
And say, I also had ex-lovers at my wedding. 2 were there, another couldn’t make it. That’s out of 27 guests. But those weren’t the creepiest breakups, which helps.
What do you mean guys are clueless?
Jordan says there’s a 0.01% chance he’s coming back for the Wizards and we’re printing up the play off tickets babyeee!!!
Wow - some of you guys are way too secure for my liking!
I have a huge problem with my girlfriend seeing her ex-boyfriends regularly. I think that there is a whole bunch of reasons for this including the fact that she used to have feelings for them but more importantly that they once loved her and (in at least one case) entirely possibly still do. I have difficulty that she once lived her life as close to them as she does to me now and that they knew her in a time when I didn’t. Then there is a kind of mortality fear - a riduculous and unjustifiable fear that one day I might be in their position.
It’s stupid, immature and pathetic. I know that we are a lot closer than either she or I have ever previously been with past partners. I know that above when I say “as close” it wasn’t really that at all. I’m not proud of my petty jealousies and I try not to project them onto her - if she wants to keep a friend then she should have every right to do so. But emotions are sadly not rational.
Saying all that, there have been other reasons for my problems in this regard and I seem to be a lot more accepting than I was a year ago. So maybe there is hope after all.
pan
Well, at the risk of perpetuating sterotypes, I had a long, ugly breakup because I waffled. Looking back, I wonder if the reason I was indirect and wimpy was because I wanted to cause him pain, not spare him. That would have been little ol’ passive-aggressive me. But I digress.
After a four-year relationship, I did the dumping, for too many reasons to list. Thus began the Summer of Gregg. He’d call constantly, come by my house drunk, threaten suicide, try to get my parents to talk me into taking him back…so I lied. I’d say I was going to be out of town, or I just needed time to myself, or whatever, when it was really jus that I didn’t love or like him at all. My dad actually said, “Erica, you’ve got to cut him off. He’s dying.” I really thought I was doing him a favor by letting him down easy. I finally had to say, “Stop waiting for me. I’m not coming back.”
One year later, after about 3 or 4 months of no contact, he e-mailed to see if I’d look over his resume (part of my job at the time, so it wasn’t that weird). What the hell, I thought. He mailed it to my parents. It was a resume of his qualifications for the position of Erica’s boyfriend. (One funny part, I have to give him, in the bulleted list of skills and qualifications, the first bullet was “hung”…untrue, but funny). I didn’t respond. A few months later, an invitation to a concert. Etc, etc.
Two years later, he still attempts contact once in a while. Even though he has a “nice girl”. His missives are always loaded with “I’m making six figures, I just bought a condo, blah blah blah.” 'Cause he wants to be friends, and I am somehow deficient because I don’t.
So, in summary, I could have done a better job of it. But he’s still psycho, and a not-tiny part of me was glad to see him hurt.
Opal, I don’t know if this is what you mean, but what you say seems to imply that ex-lovers who fall out of touch must have had relationships based only on sex. That simply isn’t true. For one thing, people change. Sometimes two people meet and they have something to teach each other, but after that lesson is learned there simply isn’t a connection anymore. That dosn’t make thier time less important or less profound than that of a pair of people that stay friends. Furthermore, time is finite. Friendships take time, and we each have only so many hours a week to dedicate to our friends (we have to sleep and eat and work and post). I know people who have no bad feelings towards a particular Ex, but they have to decide whether to maintain that old friendship or another one. (Even if they never think it out in those terms).
The worth of a relationship is based on it’s quality, not its quanity. A brief relationship can be based on much more than sex.
Anytime, TV. I live but to serve. 
Patience, grasshopper. Sit at my knee, and I will explain all. Wow, nice skirt!!
Ahem …
First, what women consider “straightforward talk” is quite often not. The four women I mentioned in my OP all thought they had been straightforward with their exes. They hadn’t been.
There are simple ways to convert weasel talk into straightforward language. First and foremost, never use the phrase “I think”. To a guy, that means you are not certain. Second, in a breakup discussion, don’t use the word “maybe” in any way. Again, it implies uncertainty.
You KNOW the relationship is over, you are CERTAIN that things won’t work out, etc.
And yes, my child, men do this deliberately. Unconsciously, but deliberately. They aren’t breaking up with you; they don’t want the relationship to be over. And, of course, being guys, they probably missed all the warning signs, and this is coming out of the blue. Like a drowning man, if you toss them the smallest piece of rope, they will cling to it as if their lives depended on it.
I am reminded of a breakup about ten years ago. She was breaking up with me, and I didn’t want that; she was the most wonderful woman I had ever met (a judgment that hasn’t changed much with the passage of years). It was pretty clear that it was over, but she was weaseling a bit. I said to her, "I know you are saying there are problems, but I don’t want this to end. I’m not going to break up with you. If you want this to be over, you have to say this is over. She said, “It’s over”.
Of course, I still made a few drunken phone calls to her over the next two months, and has horribly depressed for a while. But I knew it was over, and soon the phone calls became sober and were conversations between friends. To this day, she is one of my best friends.
And I sang “I Knew the Bride When She Used to Rock and Roll” at her wedding reception.
Sua
I was in the same situation 5 years ago, when I went off to London for university. My heart hadn’t been in the relationship for some time before that and when he told me he was going to come visit I knew I had to break it off. I did so before he bought his ticket - I can’t imagine making him make the trip only to learn too late that he wasn’t welcome.
He’s also the only ex I don’t still consider a friend, because even several years later he was still sending me soppy emails saying how much he missed me etc. It was just too uncomfortable for me, so I broke contact. I’m not happy that I had to do that, as I’ve always prided myself on being able to stay on good terms with my exes. But I made it as clear as I possibly could that we had no future and he simply couldn’t accept it, and never has.
“2. Not to sound sexist, but if a girl is cute, that’s basicly all she needs to “hook” a man.”
Firstly, "cute"ness is incredibly subjective, and secondly that’s just plain not true. Personality and other shit actually do count for something. So while there are SOME guys who will go after a nice ass/whatever, that’s by no means true for all or even most men.
“A male needs to have many traits to “hook” the girl of his choice, such as: looks, a good job, a solid income, confidence, intelligence, a good personality, etc. This places even more pressure on the man to perform on every possible level.”
And this is also not true. There are girls who will go after a guy because he has money or because he’s a rebel or whatever. De gustibus.
“4. Competition with other men for pretty women is cutthroat. In economic terms, these [scarce?] women are in high demand because it satisfies the man in a sexual way [personal gratification] and egoistic way [showing her off to others to enhance his peer status] to be with her.”
Last statistics I read about said that there are more women in this country than men, so I don’t see how it’s a cutthroad business for men . . .
“In fact, I KNOW you would feel differently.”
Oh, come now:)
“6. Sometimes your signals to a man are too subtle, unclear or mixed.”
Clearly that isn’t the case here:)
“The best way to tell a man that you are uninterested or unavailable to him is to say that you are currently in an exclusive relationship with a another guy and that you are deeply in love with your current boyfriend/lover/fiance/husband.”
Unless that’s lying . . .
“If a man knows that you are single and if you are friendly with him…he will take that to mean you may be romantically interested in him, and he will pursue you.”
This depends on the man. I have plenty of female friends with whom I’m quite happy being friends. I’m not pursuing them, they’re not (to my knowledge) pursuing me.
sigh
Yeah that is what I meant. Didn’t I say that? I said, and I quote, “all relationships that don’t end in friendship were obviously based only on sex” didn’t I? Because you know the world is just a bunch of absolutes. Anytime I say anything, I’m obviously applying it broadhandedly and completely to everyone who maybe fits into the situation described.
sigh
Aside from the obvious, let me also say that “based on sex” and “based ONLY on sex” are not the same, and the latter is YOUR term not mine.
A lot of dating relationships are based on sex. That doesn’t mean they are ONLY sex. ONLY was YOUR word. Once the sex is gone, there isn’t a lot left. This is pretty common with non-serious relationships.
It isn’t the case with ALL relationships, blah blah blah. Do I really need to start putting a #$#&* disclaimer with everything I say in case someone decides that I meant something other than I said? Or meant it to apply to everyone? Good god. I didn’t realize we were still in grammar school.
OK, perhaps you’re not cold, or even cruel, to men who ask you out, but a lot of women are. And in my experience, it seems like the general trend is that the more attractive a woman is, the more she gets “hit on,” especially by men who are more persistent, and thus the more she feels she has to be rude just to deter such behavior.
And “Oh, come now” is hardly a way to rebut the argument that your opinion would change if the tables were reversed.
It is a fact that, at least in USAian society, the male is nearly always expected to initiate contact and carries the “burden of proof” that there should be any sort of furtherance of contact. In the first moments of the relationship, it’s the male who is the petitioner and the female who holds the veto power. Just because you can find examples of women who aren’t afraid to take the initiative doesn’t disprove it - they’re simply the ones who recognize the above situation and realize they have all the power in this game.
And ironically, in some circumstances, the rejection factor is strong enough to discourage all but the men with the least desireable personalities from propositioning the women, thus attracting only the women who don’t know better, don’t care, or of equally odious character. Of course, I’m referring to the “meet market” scene.
Now, the problem for you is, if you want to really prove to me that the above is false, then show me exactly how an emotionally stable, financially reliable, normal-looking professional young man like myself can identify a suitable* life partner without being the one who has to go out and find her, and then initate a lasting dialogue.
*“Suitable” meaning basically 1) not crazy, 2) attractive enough to mate with, and 3) pleasant and intelligent enough to engage in conversation.
If there’d been an ex-lovers’ table at my wedding, they coulda sung it as loud as they wanted; it was on our dance tape at the reception. (Is that a great song, or what? :))
Opal, let me try to clarify my position.
I don’t take lovers lightly, I don’t take a lover unless I consider her to be a good mate and partner with potential for the long haul.
My “no, lets not be friends policy” is not a reflection of their goodness. If they weren’t a top shelf person I wouldn’t have dated them to begin with. With only a couple of exceptions, they are all wonderful women. Had we only been friends and never kissed, we would still be so. But what is in front of me is a lot more important to me than what is behind me.
The bottom line is looong dry spells, but hey, the next woman I take as a lover might be the one I retire with.
I ain’t so smart so I gots ta stick by my guns.
Drastic said it better that I
“Although probably the best advice is, don’t date idiots in the first place. That means long dry spells in between, but crikey, it sure beats the alternative.”
Thank you, thank you, thank you bughunter for understanding and relating to my points on my earlier post.
Let me also add:
I realize that I can’t expect an attractive woman who has never struggled with the issues that a single man has to go through in terms of being the constant, persistent initator in trying to develop rapport with the opposite sex. The men come to her…she gets her pick. How can she understand? And even if she was interested in a guy or two in her lifetime and initated contact in those situations, it’s still not the same. The key words are “constant, persistent initator”. These words allude to the themes of repeated rejection and the will to try over and over and over again while placing your feelings and your ego on the line each time while realizing that your hopes will likey be shot down. This is not what the attractive woman has to do or what she needs to worry about. But this is what most men may need to do. I believe it’s like asking a white man to understand what it’s like to be black and constantly feel like you’re facing prejudice and discrimination. The white man will never fully understand exactly what it’s like to have the experiences of a black man…just like the attractive woman will never fully understand what it’s like to constantly be on the hunt to inatiate contact with the opposite sex and in turn…face overwhelming amounts of rejection and failure in the process. Like I said in my earlier post…most men HAVE to be persistent…we are the salesmen…we have to repeatedly go to each door and introduce ourselves over ond over again. Most women won’t experience this at the same intensity level…and attractive women don’t need to “sell” themselves to men to get dates. I wish the roles could be reversed for a few months so women would understand why men are so persistent. The answer would become very clear very quickly.
A local news channel here in LA did a story last summer on a “Dating Counselor” for females - basically this woman taught her clients how to “play the game,” and the various strategies, from being an obvious available target, to aggressively courting a male.
And in one clip, the camera caught this Dating Counselor giving advice to one of her clients, an average looking woman. They were in a bar, and she was pointing out a average looking man across the room, “Look at him. You have no idea the level of rejection that man has endured. If you did, you wouldn’t be nervous right now. You wouldn’t need my help. That man has been rejected hundreds, perhaps thousands of times. If you had to endure that, you’d be devastated. But I guarantee you that if you went over there and gave him the right signals, he’d ask you out.” And she proceeded to tell her client how to do just that.
And I sat back and thought, “Wow - that should be a free public service.”
I’ve had sisters and female friends tell me, “That woman over there likes you; you should go talk to her.” And my reaction is “how the hell did you discern that?” The answer turns out to be twofold: 1) men are dense, and 2) the most obvious signals are given while we (men) aren’t looking.
Come on, ladies. Don’t be afraid to be a little agressive. You don’t have to actually initiate conversation. Just don’t be so inscrutable. You don’t have to act like a tramp or a whore; just make eye contact and smile.
(And the alternate lesson for men is, if you’re going out, take a female friend or relative with you, and ask her to spot for you.)
Ah, yes, but you ought to be comparing normal women to normal men or attractive women to attractive men. Attractive men don’t have to be the “constant, persistent initator” anymore than attractive women have to: they get hit on all the time, and even when they initiate contact they do so with the resonable expectation of sucess. Just like normal men, normal women frequently have to hustle, and to deal with rejection. There is the added problem for some more conservative women of not having clear, socially acceptable ways to initiate contact–if you don’t feel comfortable intitiating contact and there is nothing about you on the surface to inspire someone to initiate contact–whooo-hoooo–talk about dry spells. So when you say “oh, you women don’t understand what it is like,” you would do well to remember that the odds are that most of us are not attractive.
Manda JO,
Your points are well taken, and I believe they are correct. However, there is a base-line difference between male and female in the dating scene, to wit:
Equally attractive man and woman are at a bar. Both go up to strangers of the opposite sex and “hi, I’m [insert name]. Wanna go back to my place and have sex?”
Who’s more likely to go home and have sex, and who’s more likely to get slapped?
Sua
Sua, I have to object to your analogy. The conversation has been about relationships, not one night stands. Yes, more men are willing to have one night stands, but in the context of the conversation, what does that matter?
If either sex goes up to another person and says “Hi, I’m so-and-so and I’d like to go out with you, how about dinner next friday” I think there’s going to be a greater equity in who gets accepted.
I agree that in general women have a hard time making a clean break. It doesn’t take cruelty, just being clear-cut. Even so, when I broke off with one guy to start dating another guy, the first guy took some time being convinced that it was over, and I have a very decisive nature. “No, I am not going to date you anymore, I’m dating this guy” “Well, can we still fuck?” :rolleyes:
Tell me about it. I took a 9-hour Greyhound bus ride to visit my squeeze (my college to hers) and when I got there, she told me It Was Over. Made the bus ride home even more enjoyable.
Wimmen. hmph.
I hate to admit this, but it once took me six months to break up with a guy because I kept saying things like “I think…”
I think we should see other people
I think I need some space
I don’t think this is working out…
Finally when I said, “I don’t think we should see each other any more,” and he answered “I don’t think you know what is best for you,” I lost it. I stopped saying I think. I believe what I said was “Get the fuck out of my life.”
He still sent flowers, cards, letters (I sent them back). Called on the phone (I hung up on him). I had a guy friend stay with me for a few weeks and answer the phone and the door, just in case he showed up. And I had to have security escort him out of the building I worked in.
He was going through a hard time, and I thought we could be friends and I could be supportive, but he couldn’t get friends through his thick skull. He now thinks I’m a bitch. Should have been a bitch to begin with and saved myself six months.