Update. 2 gay guys, 1 spiteful ex-wife

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
1

Well, I promised I’d let everyone know what happened today. To see the 1st chapter, read this link----> http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=301202

We arrived in court at 8:45am for our 9:30am court date. We started promptly. Jason, his mother, our friend Dianne and I were all put on the stand and testified to the fact that our “gay” life was in fact no different than an average heterosexual couple. One question that the ex-wifes lawyer asked twice to me was if I had ever been arrested for sexual deviancy or any other sex crime. Why do a LOT of people automatically think that “sex” and “gay” go hand in hand? Why do some people think that gay people hold 24 hour orgies and have sex constantly?

To make a long story short… The judge stressed that Jason was a great father, but not a great role model. The judge ruled that the kids could continue their visitation (every Thursday evening for dinner and every other weekend), but may NOT spend the night UNLESS I am not there. I guess that according to the judge, it’s perfectly acceptable if we have sex at 2pm on the living room floor, but by God, we mustn’t sleep together at night. The judge also made it known that he did not approve of Jason’s lifestyle and that the homosexual lifestyle is not supported or embraced by any religion. I thought it was interesting that the judge would bring religion into the matter. Basically, Jason has been asked to choose between his homosexual “lifestyle” and his kids.

Well, the kids came over tonite and we all sat down and talked. Jason asked them if their mother had explained what happened in court today and they could only say that “mom said that Eric will have to move out while we’re here” Jason told them that “Eric wasn’t going anywhere” and that we’d just plunked down 200K for a nice 4 bedroom house so that they could have their own rooms, etc and that there was really no need for us to stay in this house if they weren’t allowed to spend the night. Both kids were upset at what has happened and can’t understand why their mother has done this. Basically, it all boils down to money. Since there are no more overnight visits, the ex-wife is entitled to more child support. Jason expects to be hauled into court again for more money. We figured it out and the ex will be “entitled” to $311 more per month. She put her kids thru hell for an extra $311 per month!!

We’re still in the early stages, but we’re seriously entertaining the idea of moving out of the Commonwealth of Virginia, preferably the Bay Area of California. As much as Jason hates to leave his kids, he is so tired of the bullshit he has to endure with his ex-wife.

Today was my second encounter with the court system. I can honestly say that I am embarrassed to be an American right now. I am embarrassed that the court system is nothing more than a “good ol boy” system. I am disgusted that my partner has always gotten the shitty end of the stick in court. I am devasted that the kids mother has quite possibly made it so that they’ll likely not see their father again until they turn 18, depending on if we move or not. I’m wondering if we moved out of state, will Jason have to continue spousal support. I’ve heard that some states will not co-operate with other states in spousal support matters. Maybe “co-operate” is not the right word.

Naturally our lawyer has offered to assist if we would like to appeal. But, we’re not. Why should be waste $20,000 to go back to the Appeals Court and then back to the SAME judge???

I’ve been up since 5am this morning and am now working the 3rd shift. Pardon all errors I’ve made in the posting.

Sincerely disenchanted,

Eric

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Moving thread from IMHO to MPSIMS.

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I would respond in full, but this would have to be in the Pit.

So much for my impression that neanderthals no longer ruled the Earth. I am so sorry, rostfrei.

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Another victory for the pro-family squadron… :rolleyes: I’m terribly sorry for you and Jason, rostfrei, and I hope things somehow work out to your satisfaction.

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I sure they’d love to hear from you.

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Eric, I’m so sorry you’re having to go through this. I don’t know what else to say, but I wish it wasn’t happening.

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The bolding is mine for emphasis. First off, I’m not a lawyer, so please don’t take this as legal advice. But what this judge is saying is outrageous, IMHO.

The judge is factually wrong here. Some religions and denominations do accept and support homosexuals. There’s a huge debate in the Christian community, with many congregations taking both sides, about the acceptablity of homosexuality. Also, most American branches of Wicca accept and embrace homosexuality. So his statement about homosexuality and religion is incorrect. The fact that he’s using that using religion as a basis for separating the children from a parent seems to show blatant partiality on his part.

Can any of our legal eagles here step in and offer advice?

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Oh, man, I wish that you’d put this in the Pit.

I second the recommendation to call the ACLU. A judge told you that you and your partners’ “lifestyle” isn’t supported by any religion? Implying that that factored into his decision? Whoa there.

I’m so sorry you have to go through this. Maybe, someday, hopefully, we’ll live in a country which no longer implements blatent bigotry as part of our legal system.

I know it’s pretty useless to say, but keep fighting. It’s worth it.

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Bleah.

Even an idiot judge can see that he’s a great father, and still homophobia and a misunderstanding of the separation between church and state wins. Homosexuality not being supported by religion is sufficent grounds for separating a man from his children? I suppose atheists can be denied overnight visitation rights with their children as well?

Sure, you could try the Bay Area, but I doubt y’all would be any better off here.

And we can’t even find something good about the situation by saying that it’s a clear demonstration of injustice. Because you just know there are people out there reading it and thinking, “Just be patient, and your rights will come one day.” And some people thinking, “Well yeah all the gays are going to come in and pledge support, but I’m sure there are two sides to the story.” And some people thinking, “Well, that judge is entitled to his beliefs and is providing a positive role model for the children (in the form of a bigoted woman gouging her ex for more money).” And some people just snickering at the “shitty end of the stick” comment.

Good luck, rostfrei. Don’t know what else to say.

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How old are the kids? They could choose to come live with you and eliminate the problem with crazy judge and evil ex wife…In Ohio at least, kids 12 years old and older are given pretty free choice of which parent to live with. YMMV.

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Because it’s true?

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So you want to elaborate on that, Freejooky, or would that ruin your one-liner?

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He wrote this in the other thread he quoted in the OP.

(Jason has two kids, a boy 16 and a girl 13.)

I would hang on to this verdict. Since it states so clearly that the reason the judge gives is that he’d be a bad role-model, but a great father, it is an extremely clear cut case, and will be very valuable. In this case, I think the judge actually has the burden of proof that you would be a bad role model.

I fully appreciate that you would feel like moving away, but that doesn’t help ‘the cause’. I also appreciate that Jason wouldn’t want to put his kids through this, because they’re not so far away from becoming adults themselves and can do whatever they like after that.

But the injustice is really and truly disgusting. There is no other word for it.

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Nah, I’ll elaborate - while I agree that the judge’s ruling is ridiculous and possibly in violation of a bazillion things, let’s not pretend that gay male culture isn’t entirely based in sexual promiscuity. Even Dan Savage (author who I linked to), a large figure in the gay community, repeatedly speaks out against this - it’s literally killing the gay community in America.

Sure, the judge was ridiculous and bigoted to not see that this is a monogamous, committed, healthy relationship - but let’s not act like he doesnt’ have a good reason to have such a sexualized view of the gay community.

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This is what I’m thinking. Is this a reasonable option for you guys?

I’m so sorry that you and Jason are going through this bullshit. I wish you the best of luck.

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IANAL, but I think the decision has to be based on blackletter law and precedent. No matter what the judge SAID, you’ve got to look at what’s on his written decision. The judge might be a neanderthal, but he’s right in the eyes of the law until you prove him otherwise. Absolutely seek the counsel of the ACLU, have your lawyer subpoena the written court transcripts (after they’re translated) and pass 'em on the ACLU. If they think you’ve got a case, pursue it. If not, then you’ve got to look elsewhere.

I’m sorry this is happening to you, truly. It’s complete shite.

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I agree with what everyone else has said. What a backwater, ingorant piece of shit this judge is, and what a piss-poor way of breaking up a family.

Do check on what the age is that kids get to choose what parent they can live with. Here in Michigan, it’s 16 or 17 - pretty close to the age of your oldest. I know, because my idiotic niece decided at age 16 that she wanted to either live with her drug-addicted crazy mother, or the addle-brained white trash parents of a friend of hers. Like you, my brother and his fiance had just bought a house, at least partially to have space for my niece to live with them. There was nothing they could legally do to make her live with them, even when she chose to live with neither her mother OR her father. So maybe you have some hope there, at least with the older child.

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This is such sad news. :frowning:

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But you can’t have it both ways. You can’t simultaneously say that it was ridiculous for the judge not to be able to see past a stereotype and then point to the stereotype as valid. You can’t call the judge’s comments bigotry while simultaneously saying that everybody who’s gay belongs to the same “community.”

Which part of the “gay male culture” that rostfrei and Jason are participating in is the part that’s so offensive to the judge? Is it that old stereotype about gay men forming long term relationships with a single partner and buying a house together? Or the shameless way they brazenly take an interest in their children’s upbringing?

If some nerdy black kid applied for a scholarship and was denied by the administrator because he’s no good at basketball, can someone respond by saying, “Are you going to deny that a significant number of African Americans excel at basketball?”

If a hetero female college student applied for custody of her child and was denied by a judge who cited the “Girls Gone Wild” videos as evidence that college girls are irresponsible, can someone respond by saying, “Don’t you see that there is a significant community of college-aged women who do in fact go mad crazy for booze and hot girl-on-girl action?”

You say yourself that the judge was an idiot for basing his decision on a stereotypical view of “gay male culture,” and that renders every single Savage Love column completely irrelevant to this case. Of course it’s a fact that there are millions of reckless, irresponsible, promiscuous, and just plain stupid gay people out there. Anyone who said there weren’t would be either hopelessly naive, or lying. But the question rostfrei asked was, “What does that have to do with me?”

I know I don’t feel any affinity for some “gay community;” I’ve been to some gay bars and just had to shake my head at the nonsense that goes on in there, and I still can’t walk through the Castro without thinking, “Geez, man. Put on a shirt, already!” I’ll still argue for people’s basic rights, same as yours, same as mine, but then once that’s won, I’ll go back to thinking that they’re all either irresponsible pervs, or just simpletons buying into the same stereotypes as everyone else. We shouldn’t be automatically obligated to be part of some “community” because of something as mundane and out of our control as sexual orientation.

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I’m a straight guy, and a father of 2(soon to be 3) daughters. All I can say is that this is total BS. I see no problem with a father wanting to be a part of his childrens lives. I mean, I could see this bsing a problem if you or he were “Drag Queens” or something, but lets face it…his children are old enough to understand sexuality and homosexuality, and I don’t understand how the children would negatively be influenced by spending more time with thier father. Sorry, I can’t really help, just rant, but I agree with everyone else who says that maybe you should bring this to the attention of the ACLU…Just the leverage they bring to the table may have some sway with the court.