US Coast Guard vessel in Hong Kong?

Factual Questions
21

As I recall, the Seceretary of Transportation said in an all-hands message in 1993 or 1994 (first Clinton Administration, about the time the “Don’t ask” thing was causing such a stir), that per his direction the policy of the USCG on homosexuality would NOT be the same as the DoD, but rather would be treated as described in my earlier post above. I worked for the USCG at the time.

While the CG does in practice adhere to much of the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice), as a part of the DoT, the Secretary of Transportation can and does issue policy directives which may add to or vary from UCMJ.

The mission of the USCG is significantly different from that of the armed services that form the DoD, as its homepage and various publications show.

Those familiar with the history of the service know that it was formed from the Revenue Cutter Service and the Lighthouse Service, neither of which were military services (part of the then Department of War). It was from 1915 (when today’s CG was formed, if memory serves me right) until the 1970’s a part of the Treasurary Deaprtment as befits its customs enforcing role. It is organized along military lines, but one could aruge that most US police departments are as well (with sergeants, captians, lieutenants, commanders, etc.). It has a military role in wartime or when assigned to areas where US forces are involved in conflicts, but its principal missions and indeed the majority of its missions are non-military.

22

One other thing… the Pose Comitatus law prohibits US military forces from being used as law enforcement forces. It allows them to assist law enforcement officers. USCG personnel are by law law enforcement officers, and can and do arrest people all the time. At one time —and still now, for all I know— Navy ships were assigned to assist the anti-drug effort in the Carribean, but because of the law a CG person had to be on board when Navy vessels were conducting such ops.

I would bet that even USCG Public Affairs in DC couldn’t give you a straight answer why their web site is a .mil instead of a .gov. Maybe it has to do with them piggybacking on military webservers?

23

Oh, bullshit. The USCG can and does give a perfectly good explanation of why it’s using a .mil address. As LateComer showed, their very website recognized that the USCG is one of the nation’s five Armed Forces.

24

Monty: Show me how I was “avoiding facts.” Please look at the following links. The CG does enforce civilian law; you stated (or at least implied) they don’t. Other military branches cannot.

From http://www.uscg.mil/uscg.shtm:

You will see the following set of links under Maritime Security:

• Drug Interdiction • Alien Migrant Interdiction • EEZ & Living Marine Resource • General Maritime Law Enforcement • Law / Treaty Enforcement

From there you can find the following sites:

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-o/g-opl/mle/welcome.htm
From the following link:
http://www.uscgboating.org/reg/reg_fr_boardingPolicy.asp
you can read the following:
Authority: Section 89 of Title 14 of the United States Code authorizes the Coast Guard to board vessels subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S., anytime upon the high seas and upon waters over which the United States has jurisdiction, to make inquiries, examinations, inspections, searches, seizures and arrests.

What to expect: A uniformed CG boarding team will notify you that they are coming aboard to conduct a CG boarding. Like other law enforcement officers, they will be armed. Once on board, they will conduct an initial safety inspection to identify any obvious safety hazards, and to ensure the seaworthiness of your vessel. The boarding officer will then ask to see the vessel registration or documentation, and proceed to inspect your vessel. The scope of the vessel inspection, during most boardings, is limited to determining the vessel’s regulatory status (e.g. commercial, recreational, passenger, cargo, and/or fishing vessel) and checking for compliance with U.S. civil law applicable to vessels of that status. The CG may also enforce U.S. criminal law. The boarding officer will complete a Coast Guard boarding form, and note any discrepancies. You will get a signed copy before they depart.

25

I’m currently into 12th year active duty Coast Guard (Chief Boatswain Mate, if anyone cares), and to settle a few disputes or misperceptions that are common:

Coast Guard vessels 65’ and over are CUTTERS. less than 65, they are boats. The sailing ship is Barque EAGLE, a war prize from WWII, originally the Horst Wessel. It trains CG Cadets from the Academy in New London, primarily.

The Coast Guard is indeed one of 5 branched of military. This is a matter of fact, not interpretation. It’s distinction in this, is that it currently works for DOT; until 1967 it was DOJ. This enables the CG to enforce law, where the posse comitatus act would prevent it we were DOD. We are soon to be Dof HLS, if that passes. The CG initially formed in 1790, as the Revenue Cutter Service, in response to piracy and revenue issues facing the young country at the time. The CG will work for the Dept. of Navy when formal war is declared, or by direction of the POTUS.

The CG policy towards gays and lesbians is the same as DOD.

The CG has actively participated in every war this nation faced. For examples, many Normandy landing craft were CG-as were landing craft all throughout WWII. Our 1 MOH recipient, Douglas Munro, was killed saving many Marines from Japanese forces at Guadalcanal. The flag raised at Mt Suribachi, came from a CG vessel. The CG suffered heavy losses during WWI with the unenviable task of escort duties. The CG continues it’s previously mentioned efforts in the Persian Gulf onboard Navy ships. During war, we’re there, just not featured. The DOD boys and girls don’t really need us, but we sure like to help when we can.

All E4 and above are, for the purposes of federal law enforcement,
Federal law officers. Whether or not that’s what they are qualified to do, is an internal process.

The Coast Guard enforces international and federal law, and will assist with State or local law, at requests from those agencies.

We use .mil, because we are.

Basically, everything JCHeckler said is true, except points 1 and 3, of the first post. It sounds as if he/she was in the CG at some point, with their knowledge of the service.

As to the OP- it’s probably a 378’ Hamilton class cutter. They routinely travel across the globe, as do the ice breakers. That particular cutter may or may not be working with a Navy group. Often, 378’s will deploy with a Navy fleet for 6 mos. or so. They may be alone, however. They will enforce international laws, perhaps on some type of fisheries mission. Also, the CG is very active with working with other nations’ navies and CG’s providing training, especially to the newly formed, post cold war nations, such as Georgia, et al.

I’d be happy to clarify any questions. I’ve been enlisted now for 12 yrs, a Boarding Officer for 10 years, did much counter-drug work in the Carribbean, much SAR, some AtoN, and currently Marine Inspection.

Lifer puddle pirate sends…

26

That is to say, points 1 and 3 at the bottom of the first post, or the second 1 and 3, or… you know what I mean

(damn beer)

27

shunt: You’re avoiding facts by pretending that the USCG’s not a 100% military service.

I don’t care what you pretend I implied. I stand by what I actually said.

Thanks, Chandeleur.

28

BTW, according to http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1385.html, this is what the law regarding Posse Comitatus prohibits:

You’ll notice that it only applies to the Army and the Air Force. The Navy and the Coast Guard are not included.

29

Monty:

This is from your post above:

Your quote: The USCG does civilian law enforcement, which the military is not allowed to do.

Your response: Nice try, but no cupie doll. The USCG does the assigned military missions it exists to perform. Part of that is to defend the coasts (whod’ve guessed, hey?) from those who wish to violate the coast for illegal purposes.

Get back to me when you’ve a fact or two up your sleeve.

My posts have been a response to that part of your post only. I realize fully well the CG is part of the military. When I first read that statement I interpreted it as “which the rest of the military is not…”

OK, the CG does law enforcement, is 100% military, but the rest of the military does not enforce civilian laws. I think that settles it, and we are in agreement. Sorry for my confusion.

30

No problem, shunt. I don’t think I’ve ever mentioned this, but I have a few friends who’ve served in the Coast Guard. The idea that the Coast Guard “is less than military” is actually prevalent. And wrong.

31

From here:

“In order to understand the extent to which the Act has relevance today, it is important to understand to whom the Act applies and under what circumstances. The statutory language of the Act does not apply to all U.S. military forces.[2] While the Act has applicability to the Army, Air Force, Navy, and Marines, including their reserve components, it does not have any applicability to the Coast Guard, nor to the huge military manpower resources of the National Guard.[3] The National Guard, when it is operating in its state status pursuant to Title 32 of the U.S. Code is not subject to the prohibitions on civilian law enforcement. (Federal military forces operate pursuant to Title 10 of the U.S. Code.) In fact one of the express missions of the Guard is to preserve the laws of the state during times of emergency when regular law enforcement assets prove inadequate. It is only when federalized pursuant to an exercise of Presidential authority that the Guard becomes subject to the limitations of the Posse Comitatus Act.”

32

[off topic]
Quite the true statement. In the CG, you spend your first few years proactively combatting this misperception, in both civilian and military circles alike. After much frustration, you just get used to it, and carry on as professional sailors. The folks that need us the most, the mariners out there, they know full well who we are, and I believe most of them appreciate us. We do our best with what little (comparitively) we have. Your support is noted, and most appreciated.
For a look into what we sometimes face, I suggest a quick look here

[/off topic]

Hooligans Navy Sailor sends…

33

Gosh, sorry for all the excitment I seem to have caused.

Of course the USCG is military. Sure as shootin’

Still it’s law enforcement character makes it more acceptable for port calls from time to time and from place to place than misty-gray USN ships.

(Now the Civil Air Patrol, THEY are paramilitary.)

34

The two USN aircraft carriers on which I served made a lot of perfectly acceptable port visits throughout the Pacific Rim, to include Hong Kong. I really enjoyed the Tsim Sha Tsui district!

Other places visited aboard a Navy ship: Diego Garcia, Sasebo, Yokosuka (that’s a “gimmee,” it’s the homeport of my last ship), Pusan, Abu Dhabi, Jebel Ali, Pattaya Beach, just to name a few.

35

OK, I got the wrong stuff started.

The USCG is paramilitary. The USCG performs BOTH military actions and civilian law enforcement actions. It is under the DOT, not DOD. But in times of war, or the directed by the President, it acts under the DOD.

WHEN it acts as military, it is part of the Navy and a USCG ship has as much authority, and regulations, as any USN ship.

WHEN acting in their civilian role, they have as much authority as the FBI, Customs, etc - way more than any Navy ship does.

Paramilitary does not mean a military want-to-be. The USCG is both military and civilian. It has the power of both in a single organization.

36

Well, that and the fact that we haven’t closed down any Australian brothels lately. We just simply don’t have enough people on board the cutters :smiley:

Monty: Any chance you were on the Sara?

37

Did you forget to read the rest of the thread, stafish? The United States Coast Guard is not a paramilitary.

From Webster’s

Also:

I invite your attention to definition 2 therein and also to this:

And

So, just in case you haven’t figured it out yet, the USCG is not paramilitary. It is not “both military and civilian.” It is military. It is one of this nation’s five Armed Forces.

Your fist posting in this thread already proves that you don’t understand what the Armed Forces are.

38

In June somewhere around Long Island Sound, close to New London CT, I saw a beautiful ship that said “China Coast Guard” on the side. I assumed from that that English must be the universal marine languge…

39

JCHeckler: “2. The USCG is the only fully gender integrated US uniformed service. There are no jobs that are exclusively assigned to males (or females).”

I find it hard to believe that there are any jobs in the USPHS "that are exclusively assigned to males (or females). Ditto for NOAA.

Chandeleur: “The Coast Guard is indeed one of 5 branched of military. This is a matter of fact, not interpretation. It’s distinction in this, is that it currently works for DOT; until 1967 it was DOJ.”

Not DOJ. It was under of Treasury.

40

I’m gonna guess that what JCH meant was armed service.

:smack: Of course, Treas Dept. I don’t know what I was thinking. Friends don’t let friends drink and post. Thanks for the catch.