The point everyone’s trying to make is that (a great many) foreign rightists loathe him too. But you’re right: the stats on Bush’s popularity simply don’t exist, as I have said.
If you choose to dismiss what we’re saying because it’s anecdotal, well, that’s that. I kind of see your point. But I know what I see and hear every day (and I don’t just hang around with “leftists and intellectuals”), and many other dopers have told you what they see and hear every day - particularly “I don’t know a single person who likes him” from many - that does increase the sample rate significantly. But at the end the day, it is indeed anecdotal, and you’re totally at liberty to dismiss what we’re saying.
I think it is very safe to say that Bush is popularly loathed by the rest of the world, esp. in Islamic and African coutries (Mandela was representing a popular African view of Bush in his anti-war speech). It’s also laughable to say he enjoys any sort of popularity in all but a very few European political minorties (UK Conservatives is one where he does enjoy some popularity, infact I met a certain nameless Old-style Conservative MP and Baronet who was a big fan of GWB).
blowero, you made the point that politics in the US is polarized. You failed to mention the large percentage of nonparticipants and independents, who form the balance of power when they feel like it. Clear now?
We’re also at the mercy of every US President’s actions, but we don’t get a vote so all we can do is boo impotently from the sidelines while some smirking hick sock puppet makes decisons that affect the course of our lives and our countries future.
And don’t forget to get back to me when Fox becomes a balanced source of information.
I don’t like Bush’s smirk, either, but I don’t measure people based on their facial expressions. Calling Bush a “hick” is bigotry against someone from a rural area. It’s kind of silly in Bush’s case, because he was educated at a top prep school and Yale and Harvard. Whatever flaws he has aren’t due to having spent his life in a small town.
I agree that Fox News isn’t as balanced as they claim, although they make an effort. OTOH CNN is on the other side. But, what’s your point?
jjimm, what you’re consistently ignoring is that Pew, in presenting its poll, ties feelings abroad about Bush to its poll numbers. Since the number of those feeling positively about the U.S. has jumped considerably since the Iraq war*, the war was a product of the Bush Administration, and nothing else has happened since the previous poll to significantly alter foreign views of the U.S., I think you have to conclude that there are quite a few people outside the U.S. who view Bushian policy/Bush the President favorably.
Of course, if statements like this “He is (viewed as loathsome by) EVERYONE I have ever talked to about this” are all the evidence you need, then no debate is possible.
Talk about denial.
*I find this puzzling and discouraging, given my feelings that the war was a large mistake.
Look, I know you’ve got this Pew poll that tells you that support for the US and (inexplicably) Bush has risen a lot since Iraq II. But what can I say? You can curse our statements as anecdotal or, worse, lies to support our argument, but we Europeans all individually know a huge amount of other Europeans. And I for one am not exagerating when I say that he is held in no affection by ANY (okay, one) of the people I know, even by those who support his stance.
It’s not denial we’re in. The poll’s just plain wrong.
AH! We may have found a point of misunderstanding!
So, there are people who will admit to that the PotUS ocassionally does the right thing on one issue or another, but just simply have no love lost for George. Because he comes across as a smirking hick(*) sockpuppet, or seems at times oblivious to the world around him, or likes to rub the world’s face on that he can do what he wants, or fights an ongoing battle with the English language.
Fine with that. It’s not his job to be liked by everyone. But it would HELP a whole damn lot if he at least seemed to be trying sincerely.
[(*)OK, december, here’s MY take on that: he is a prep-schooled Yalie child-of-privilege with a Harvard grad degree whose parents were transplants from New England who headed for Kennebunk every chance they had. Then, the “Texas Boy from Crawford” image starts to look like a deliberate contrivance to ingratiate himself to other oilpatchers, y’know? And I’m not sure if I’d really want my leaders to act dumb in order to get votes.]
Has dubya’s popularity improved because we “won”? What if the entire venture had turned into a major “alliance” ass kicking?
i guess i have always resented the opinion that the mighty USA knows whats best for everybody else in the world. Don’t get me wrong, I think the US is a great country but like any human invention its not infallible.
I’m sorry, that’s over the line to call a conservative Americans racist sexist homophobes who want to eat the poor… oops I mean calling Europeans anti-semites.
Of course I’m using hyperbole in saying all Europeans hate Jews. Europe is a big place, almost a quarter as large as America, and the cultures are as diverse as a recent immigrant in Santa Ana, California is from a Louisiana Cajun family is from a devout Mormon in Utah is from a 3rd generation Irish woman in New York City. But similar to the outrageous anti-semitic propaganda describing Jews which came out of Europe in the past century is the propaganda describing George W Bush and Americans in general that most Europeans have time to digest.
Most Americans do the same thing, here in the states most people who get as far as high-school world history textbooks see Europeans believing in the ideals Franco, Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, etc. And in recent history people thinking appeasement of that human meat grinder called the Soviet Union would have worked better than America’s militant defense of western Europe, and more recently the appeasement of Slobodan Milosevic and New Europe’s failure to do anything about him and his ethnic cleansing. I could go on and on, French in Algeria, Belgians in the Congo, Russians in Ukraine, WWI, WWII. And about the Jews, the textbooks and news focus on what looks like persistent anti-semitism in Euorpe, from Martin Luther to that boy who was murdered recently in Germany because he “looked Jewish.” It’s hard not to think that Europeans still think “perfidious Jews” are still the problem.
As it relates to the OP, European popular sentiment has been very VERY wrong in the past and has caused the deaths of 100’s of millions of people. So, when a vast majority of Europeans don’t like something or someone, there’s a good chance they’re very wrong again. Of course a reasonable person must listen to everyone’s arguments, but a reasonable person also must look at the track record of an authority when someone makes an appeal to it.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by jjimm *
**My dear Kempis: “probably simplistic” is a significant understatement. Your assertions might perhaps be described as “woefully ill-informed and slightly offensive”.
It’s slighty offensive to assert that socialism is more accepted in Europe than in America? And a president who was more socialistic than current and previous 2 presidents wouldn’t be more popular?
If I’m wrong about that, let me know how before calling my assertions names. Makes me think I’m right.
What’d I’d like to see is what Clinton did which Europeans thought was good… the impression here in America is that he was rather hands-off in foreign policy except for Bosnia.
Cite please. And worldwide, not just the Middle East or France and Germany.
Anyway, it doesn’t matter one whit whether he’s liked or loathed as long as America is respected. And I think that as a result of his actions, America is more respected.
No, it isn’t. In fact, I tend to agree. I have no sympathy at all for US-style conservativism. But I know that it’s non of my business.
Now thatis offensive. I’d appreciate if you had a cite for this accusation.
Yeah, right. European popular sentiment hasn’t changed at all since then. Here we are again, the millitaristic Germans and their old enemy, the French just waiting for the next opportunity to kick each other’s ass. Will they ever learn…
:rolleyes:
That’s too bad, you could learn something. The American conservative viewpoint has had to defend its ideas more than the liberal viewpoint, since until recently it was out of power in the Congress and mass media for a very long time. And predictions of nationwide economic collapse due to Reagan-Bush economic policy failed to materialize, along with nuclear war due to a hardline stance against Communism. Perhaps your own opinions are just as misguided as those liberals in the 1980’s.
Hahaha no. I was being rude and facetious in painting Europeans with such a broad brush. And conservatives hate the poor. And are racist and sexist.
Well maybe that particular situation won’t happen again, but the Europeans are still there to make more big mistakes. I suppose the next dictator who starts making threats to peace in his neighborhood will be handled by the EU? Should the Europeans be negotiating with North Korea right now? No? How about those terrible atrocites being committed in central africa? Can you do something about that if the US is busy with NK? No? What ARE you doing?
Kempis, unfortunately the medium of the message-board means that one tends to take things said at face-value. Especially when one isn’t familiar with the style of the poster. There isn’t a “facetious” smiley, so I’m afraid that I took your comment literally, and judged you thereon. Since you have clarified, I shall ignore the comment. Let’s leave it at that.
Anyway, I do agree that we Europeans tend towards favouring more socialistic policies - stuff like universal healthcare, etc., is popular even amongst many European conservatives. That said, I personally would far rather live in a free-market economy than a socialist one. But it’s not all black and white: there are degrees of everything, and though free education and health go against the grain of conservative thinking, I for one am in favour of them.
Can you clarify: is this statement “So, when a vast majority of Europeans don’t like something or someone, there’s a good chance they’re very wrong again” also facetious?
Well, we’ve been over this, and it’s now just a circular argument. I honestly thought it was a given that everyone accepted Bush’s unpopularity. I’m not trying to make value judgments here (although I expect they came across loud and clear), as many of you have pointed out, unpopularity is not necessarily a bad thing.
Although I do think the defensiveness of a lot of the posts ie. ‘why should we care what you think of our president’ is probably as close an answer to my question as I’m going to get.
Is it too late to answer the OP? I didn’t see this thread for a bit.
My many visits to Devon, Hertfordshire, and friends in Birmingham, have rewarded me with meeting people in the UK who are almost universally in favour of Mr. Bush and his policies. It could simply be that people are being polite in mixed company, but I doubt that that covers all occasaions and instances. I hear a lot of “thank God your leader has a spine and is getting these terrorist scum”. Then again, the crowd I’m talking about is primarily over 30 years. I imagine hanging out with the younger group would yield a completely different answer.
However, I don’t know a single Irish person or Scot who likes Bush. Not a one - in fact, I typically see a sort of scary, simmering hatred that is really uncomfortable to be around. Of course, most of that crowd is under 30-35.
As for myself, Bush abandoned me. I do not support the man any more. I don’t hate him or dislike him, but I simply don’t and won’t support him. And the “world’s” antipathy does not affect how I feel in the slightest.