US foreign policy is without flaw!

Made ya look. Thread title is extreme hyperbole, strictly for advertising purposes. Take it serously and you will be mocked.
In this thread, Simon X has asked all comers to defend the “Democratic Domino Theory of the Middle East.” Some have, but none seemingly with a great deal of enthusiasm. My own view, which I posted, was that I supported the current US policy because while it was obviously flawed, it was at least a comprehensive and coherent plan, and that while I had not heard any others, I’d like to.

It was suggested that asking for “better ideas,” should be it’s own thread, hence I have created one. The request is for all comers to furnish the outlines of a superior post-9/11 foreign policy. Here are the conditions:

1. It must eliminate the threat that Radical Islam poses to the United States (Or else make the case that there is no threat). In fact, to stay on point, I’d like it if the last sentance of any proposal included words to that effect (see my example below).

2. It must not be consistient with the American character. We’re not going to put veils on women, give up our cars or adopt socialism.

**3. ** It must be feasible. If you want to say “The US forces Israel to give up 100% of the West Bank by threatening to withdraw all aid” I’d say that’s feasible; it might not work, but we can at least envison that as possibly happening. “Give the UN exclusive rights to all global oil reserves.” is not feasible. All nations and groups act in their enlightened self-interest, except for the ones run by crazy people.

This goes also for military logistics. It is not possible to keep division-sized formations or carrier battle groups deployed in the field for more than a few months or so at a time without suffering severe loss of effectiveness (and expense).

4. It must have some detail. If you refer to “UN Troops,” indicate which nations are going to furnish these troops. If you say “compromise” or “cease-fire” you must give some indication of what happens if one side proves intransigent or to be acting in bad faith.

**5. ** It must be workable in its timeframes. No grand schemes that bear fruit in 2100.

6. You can dial the wayback machine to about 9/13/2001 and start doing things differently from that point onward, but no further. If you do, you must fairly account for events in the last two years. If you want to invade Saudi Arabia under a UN flag, explain how you got the approval that Bush didn’t for Iraq (and not “I’m smarter”).

7. Finally … you must assume that (pre-invasion) your intelligence services are telling you that Iraq “probably” has some sort of WMD program and “possibly” has functional weapons.
The following is offered as a summary of current US policy, here for informational purposes and as an example of a plan that, IMO has about a 50/50 shot at working:


The Neo-cons’ plan in <400 words

Situation:
Radical Islam is a looming mortal threat to the United States. Fundamentalism is growing in size and strength, and the destruction of the United States as we know it is a stated goal of many adherants. It’s ability to harm the United States is currently limited, but will only increase with time, and may increase exponentially if extremist groups acquire WMD and/or the ability to control the global economy via the worldwide dependance on Middle Eastern oil.

The root cause of Radical Islam the frustration, shame and anger many Arabs and Muslims feel about their social/political/economic situations. Changing the political landscape of the Middle east is essential to improving the lives of Arabs. However, the autocratic regimes in the Middle East are not open to reform; indeed they generally foster anti-American sentiment in an effort to divert internal pressure away from themselves, staying in power by fostering the belief that Arab problems are solely attributable to outsiders (primarily the US and Israel, though often “the West” or “infidels” in general), and that their problems can only be addressed by attacking those outsiders.

Solution:
Therefore, these regimes must either be forced to reform themselves or be replaced with reformist regimes that will begin the long, slow process of bringing the Arab world into the 21st century. It is unlikely that economic or social pressure would be effective in bringing about a change in the Arab political landscape. Economic sanctions would likely harden anti-American sentiment. Increased economic aid would increase the sense of shame many Arabs feel about their situation; besides which such aid would be going to the very regimes that are already the problem. Targeted, limited use of American military power is the quickest way change the social and political landscape of the Middle East.

The obvious target for such action was Iraq; they were already an outlaw regime in violation of UN resolutions, they were a gross abuser of human rights, and they were suspected of developing WMD. Moreover, they have a relatively secular and educated population and significant natural resources.
Replacing the Iraqi regime creates the possibility for successful, modernized, liberal democratic Arab state.

If the Iraqis can create for themselves (with US help) a social/political/economic situation that is obviously superior to that in other Arab nations, it will act as a dramatic spur to reformist sentiments in those nations, disproving notions that Arabs cannot govern themselves, that Islam is incompatible with democracy, or that all of the Arabs world’s problems are attributable to outsiders. Internal pressure will mount for reform in Arab nations; hopefully this will come peacefully, though violent revoltions cannot be ruled out.

As Arab nations improve their situations, the anger and frustration that fuels terrorism will lessen, and as nations modernize, less-militant and restrictive brands of Islam will grow at the expense of extremism. Eventually, cut off at the roots, Radical Islam will disappear as a major social force and cease to be a threat to the US.


That’s a broad summary that I think Paul Wolfowitz could live with. (Here’s more.). This is NOT “my” plan. If you want to attack it, go to the other thread. If you refer to me as a neo-con, a right-winger, a Republican or a Cowboys fan, I will regard it as a personal insult.

I’ve heard a hundred times that Bush and his people are morons. Let’s see you do better.

Any thesis that includes Ba’athist Iraq among “Radical Islam” so seriously misunderstands Middle East regional politics, Radical Islam, and mainstream Islam as to be divorced from any semblance of reality.

An alterntive to the Bushista program?
Active involvement in Afghanistan with the idea of actually getting that country to function (rather than ignoring it as the warlords, whose infighting allowed the Taliban to come to power, retake and divide the country among themselves, even forgetting to include Afghanistan in the budget until the last minute).
A serious effort to engage the Security Council in taking action to isolate Iraq rather than throwing away all the good will we had garnered from September 11 in a unilateral cowboy action that has caused several nations to withdraw from supporting us financially or with shared intelligence. (This would include not deliberately (and transparently) lying about what our intelligence actually said regarding Iraq’s threat and capabilities.)
A genuine plan for any country we invade, rather than wide-eyed neo-con dreams that we will be hailed as liberators when we can’t even get the country to function.
Avoiding the habit of our current regime of installing propaganda machines in place of a free press (since the people of the countries we invade are quite capable of recognizing government blather disguised as “news,” having lived under it for many years).

That’s if the intelligence services are even being sincere.

Powell has come around to the position that Iraq might not have had any WMDs.

“Without a flaw?” Whatevah do y’all walk on? :wink:

It certainly would. Which is why the above does not.

Radical Islam does not directly govern any state except Iran. But it exerts great and growing influence in the whole Arab/Muslim world, and is fostered or at least tolerated by all the governements there. That is the problem. The fact that the people of Iraq are/were relatively secular was already mentioned. If you wanna debate Bush’s plan, go to the other thread. Let’s see what you’ve got:

Okay, so more emphasis on getting Afghanistan to work. Is this an end in itself or does it lead somewhere? What does “active involvement” mean? This is what I’m talking about when I say detail. Do you want large numbers of American troops on the ground? More money?

What does “isolate” mean? Do you want to keep the sanctions regime that was in place? How do you eliminate with the back-door deals that were already happening to avoid sanctions?

So you do want to invade countries? Which ones? Under what pretext? You want to do a better job of schmoozing the French et al. OK, fine. But what if they (or the Russians) still refuse to go along, and veto a UNSC resolution? Do you call the whole thing off, or do you go ahead with whomever you can, unilaterally if need be? How would participating be in their interest?

I wasn’t aware that the dozens of newspapers currently were all controlled from Washington. Nevertheless, I will take that as one vote for getting “Voice of America” off the air. I’m sure that will help.
I don’t see anything here that is substantially different from the current plan, except in details and execution. Given that any sane supporter would concede that there have been and will be occasional mistakes, I fail to see how you’re suggesting anything substanitively different from the neo-cons. You seem to be saying that you’d do what they’re doing, except you’d do it better; owing, I presume, to your obviously superior intelligence and moral fiber.

I´m with Tomndebb, every time I hear that the plan is to turn Iraq into a Democracy so it spreads the gospel in the ME I wonder what´s wrong about Afganistan? I mean, there was a quite legitimate reason for going there; the world supported the invasion more or less unanimously, after all, the Taliban were hated as much as Saddam, there was an ongoing hell there under their rule which I dare to say was more oppessive that Iraq.
So, my plane would have been to stay in Afganistan, turn that god-forsaken (in a non-religious sense), fundamentalist-infested, into a democracy; if that could work there it could work anywere.

But noooo, the USA had to pull a Panama in Iraq. :smack:

That was meant to read “dozens of newspapers in Iraq.”

Hence the word “probably.” I don’t think anybody at all informed is going to say that concerns of WMD were made up from nothing … those upset that “Bush lied” usually say that he exagerrated the threat, or said that we “knew” what we only “suspected.”

Ehhrr… I mean “my plan…”

I disagree. I’m saying that my conclusion is, based on change in statements and actual developments, that Bush & Co. did not sincerely suspect Iraq of having WMDs. Powell’s latest statement shows him retreating only to a stance of uncertainty. But that’s because he can’t come out and flat out say the war was held for some other reasons, whatever they might be.

Ultimately, this all comes down to your basic worldview:

[ul]
[li]Politicians and leaders are more or less sincere people with maybe some personal faults and vices. Their decision-making framework conforms to a decent degree with commonly held public morals. [/li]OR
[li]Politicians and leaders who make it to the very top are sophisticated individuals with aspirations that may or may not coincide with the country’s “best interests”. Their framework is more attuned with their aspirations as long as it enables them to continue or improve their position.[/li][/ul]

You can have exceptions in both worldviews. The key to knowing which one you believe in, depends on who and how many you believe the exceptions are.

If when Bush said he “knew” something, when he was aware that what he said “knew” was really only “suspected,” then he lied.

Okay, so the neo-con plan, just switching countries. A credible alternative.

My critiques would be that:
[ol]
[li]I sure hope you’re not someone who objects to losing soldiers in Iraq, because we’d be losing a hundred times more in Afghanistan. The climate and terrain (mountains v. pool-table Iraq) is massively against us and the resistance would be experienced and accustomed to guerrilla tactics. It would be very bloody. Remember the Russians.[/li][li]It’s not Arab. The psychological impact would not be the same in the minds of Syrians, Egyptians and Saudis who saw Saddam as a heroic resister. and they would be less inclined to embrace new ideas coming from Afghanistan.[/li][li]Iraq was a more or less modern country run by a psycho. Afghanistan was chaos. Poor education, no economy, no skilled workers, no natural resources to speak of, not much of a history of ever being united or successful. If rebuilding and improving Iraq is a huge task that we may well fail at, doing the same in Afghanistan is much harder, and would take decades even with our undivided attention. [/li][li]Geography. [/li]a. Being landlocked and mountainous makes it harder to control the borders, and all supplies and equipment (including every single tank) would have to be flown in. What if Pakistan stops granting overflight rights?
b. Musharraf already had internal unrest; I submit a larger war would increase this pressure, especially when Taliban start trickling (or flooding) over that border into Pakistan. It’s not hard to imagine a coup in there, with the Islamists taking charge; and then it’s a whole new ballgame.
c. Iraq is closer to the real source of the problem, one the US is not yet ready to face: Saudi Arabia.
[/ol]

Gyan9: Fine. I withdraw #7, and we’ll pretend that were you president, you would have had absolute knowledge of which intelligence reports to belive and which to ignore. Would you care to address the OP?

Which is exactly the line of reasoning which I repeated and you quoted. Do you have anything constructive to contribute?

What nonsense!

Voice of America was not directly involved with Iraq. Instead the current regime established something called the IMM (and recruited a VoA executive to help establish it). He resigned in disgust after he found that the occupation forces insisted on him broadcasting nothing but happy news while denying him the resources to conduct a real news effort.

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
What nonsense![\QUOTE]Fine, I retract my sarcastic jibe. care to address the rest?

:rolleyes:
[annoyed by irrelevant insinuation]
Have you stopped cheating on your income tax returns?
[/annoyed]

Your comment seemed geared toward undermining or casting doubt on whether what Bush said was a lie. There is no uncertainty about it: Bush and a number of the members of his administration did in fact lie about the justification for going to war in Iraq. They lied about what they knew, and they lied about what they did not know. The entire war has been predicated on a systematic deception of the American people.

I have already addressed the general OP with less dishonesty the the current adminstration (and without getting into any sideshows that have nothing to do with “Radical Islam,” such as Iraq). As long as your argument continues to conflate the separate issues of stopping al Qaida and and Bush’s desire to “get” Hussein, there is no point in trying to make more explicit comments that will get lost in the clutter of the corrections necessary to set out a legitimate course of action.

Knorf, there are many threads addressing those issues. This is not one of them.

I deliberately included the “situation” as the Neocons saw it as part of the OP, and from that explained how they decided on Iraq. If you see it differently, I once again invite you to explain how you see the post 9/11 world, and what you suggest doing about it.

So far you’ve cast aspersions and made snide remarks, but you’ve not explained anything that you’d have done that’s substanitively different from Bush.

On the contrary. I have indicated that–very different than Bush–I would not embark on unilateral crusades that alienated both potential allies and otherwise neutral parties, I would actually invest in securing the gains that we initially achieved (and are now throwing away) in Afghanistan, I would not pretend that invading Iraq had anything to do with “Radical Islam” or the sponsorship of worldwide terrorists (since Iraq was completely separate from the former and had not engaged in the later in around ten years), thus saving my resources to go after actual sponsors of world-wide terrorism. I would not tell blatant lies in an attempt to create a sideshow war, thus further destroying my ability to call upon the world community for assistance.

If you are unable to see how those are specific tasks that differ from the Bush regime, then we are at an impasse. (If you genuinely believe that my proposals are the same as Bush’s actions, then I would have to conclude that you have not followed the news of the last 16 months.)

If you truly believed that we needed to replace an autocratic regime with a democratic one, then the place should have been Afghanistan, where we had a legitimate reason to invade, we had the support of the international community, and we had the grudging acceptance of the Middle East. Instead, Bush declared that we were not in the business of “nation building” and promptly waged a war against iraq that violated all the conditions that made Afghanistan a legitimate target (and violated the UN Charter, to boot) and promptly decide to “build a nation” in Iraq.
(Ironically, it has been the UN that, just this week, has been able to fashion a tentative compromise among various Sunni and Shia leaders that will allow the U.S.'s hand-picked, thief-led ruling coalition to make some headway toward permitting democratic reforms in Iraq. This action was taken by the UN, despite the fact that the U.S. wanted the UN simply to send money and low-level functionaries to carry out (failing) U.S. programs while denying the UN the authority to carry out the mission that they have managed to work out without U.S. “permission.”)

[QUOTE=furt]
Okay, so the neo-con plan, just switching countries. A credible alternative.

My critiques would be that:

[li]I sure hope you’re not someone who objects to losing soldiers in Iraq, because we’d be losing a hundred times more in Afghanistan. The climate and terrain (mountains v. pool-table Iraq) is massively against us and the resistance would be experienced and accustomed to guerrilla tactics. It would be very bloody. Remember the Russians.[/li][/QUOTE]

Wait, I thought the country had already been invaded and ocupied, without many casualties (less than in Iraq)
Granted, the terrain plays in favour of the guerrilas, but I don´t see in the news suicide bombings day in day out in Afganistan, as it´s happening in Iraq; what I´m trying to say is that, now that both countries are more or less in the same state of occupation the facts show that Iraq is a more dangerous place.

[QUOTE=furt]
[li]It’s not Arab. The psychological impact would not be the same in the minds of Syrians, Egyptians and Saudis who saw Saddam as a heroic resister. and they would be less inclined to embrace new ideas coming from Afghanistan.[/li][li]Iraq was a more or less modern country run by a psycho. Afghanistan was chaos. Poor education, no economy, no skilled workers, no natural resources to speak of, not much of a history of ever being united or successful. If rebuilding and improving Iraq is a huge task that we may well fail at, doing the same in Afghanistan is much harder, and would take decades even with our undivided attention. [/li][/QUOTE]

I don´t care if it´s Arab or not; it was a cradle and safe-heaven of fundamentalism, if the goal is to show how a fundamentalist society can improve changing into a democracy, Afganistan would be the best candidate.

I agree with A and B, however C stinks like hell.