What exactly is included in the rifle training of a marine?
I ask because a fellow elsewhere on the Net is boasting that an average marine is able to hit a torso-sized target 9 times out of 10 at 500 yards, with an M-16.
Considering my own military experience, this sounds quite unlikely.
I could, back in the day. Probably half the guys in my group of trainees could, as well. Being accurate with a rifle in the prone position is really not difficult. Accuracy becomes more of a problem when sitting or standing without something on which to rest the weapon.
According to this schedule, the Marine recruit is introduced to the M16A2 in the first week of actual training. At week six they undergo marksmanship training, and the following week they undergo qualification. All Marines must qualify.
The Marines have traditionally placed an extremely high value on marksmanship. Every Marine is trained to be a rifleman first, and I believe they all must undergo rifle qualification annually. They recently changed their targets to the type you described above:
The way qualification used to work was with a 0-5 point rating on each of fifty fired rounds, including 10 at 500 yards. The minimum passing score was 190 out of a possible 250. Or put another way, competely miss twelve shots out of fifty and you’ve failed. I’m curious to know how the new system works.
I don’t have a citation for this, but my former Marine cousin claims that the Marines have a much higher proportion of “expert” or higher-rated riflemen than the other services. There used to be several gradations of expertise, and I think that’s still the case.
In the M16A2, Marines have a weapon which can quite easily reach out and touch someone at 460 meters (about 500 yards), which the Army considers to be the within the limit of the weapon’s “effective” range. Its sights are generally “zeroed” at 300 meters, making correction at 460 meters relatively simple. In fact, according to that link above, its muzzle velocity is so high that it drops only 64 inches in that distance, and a 10 mph breeze will cause it to drift only 46 inches, which I am told is really quite reasonable that far out.
So my guess would be that the average Marine is probably what I would call “one hell of a shot” at up to and including 500 yards. But don’t take my word for it. Anyone who has accompanied me to the firing range knows I’m no Marine.
8 years in the corps and I have never done worse than 9 out of 10 at the 500. I have done that on a meter and yard range (the meter range being about 10% longer)
Also, I had a guy with me in bootcamp that came over from the Army. He regularly qualified as expert in the Army and fail to qualify at all his first attempt on the range in the Marines.
He said that the Marine rifle qualification is MUCH harder.
I got 36 on 40 at the range and qualified for sniper training.
Oh, wait, that was a video game.
Like scotth, I was dead on at 500. 4 years active duty, plus some Reserve years, let’s call it 5 Quals and 5 Pre-Quals. I don’t have my books out, but I’ll say I missed once or twice at 500 yards (out of 100 rounds). I sucked at kneeling, but popped them good from prone, slow fire, with the M16A2.
[Bit of a hijack, please]
As someone who’s never fired a rifle, may I ask if this means that you would aim 64 inches above your targer OR do you simply re-zero the sights for the (estimated) distance of 460 meters?
[/hijack]
Ex-Army checking in. No experience with the Marines (and I won’t question their accuracy) but I’m having a problem with what I’m hearing here and what I was taught about the M16 in all it’s incarnations.
IIRC, a bullet leaving the muzzle actually rises (due to it’s spinning maybe?) and does not come, uh, “in line” with the rifle barrel again until about 250m. I guess you’d describe it as a long parabolic arc that crosses the X axis at 0 and 250 meters. So you had to aim a little low on closer targets if you were looking to hit a specific part of the target (not just anywhere on it).
Now to hit a target at 500m you’d have to aim high, but wouldn’t the target be hidden by your barrel then? Can someone explain please?
Now to hit a target at 500m you’d have to aim high, but wouldn’t the target be hidden by your barrel then?
It would if your line of sight started at, say, 1/8" above the breech. With the rear sight raised sufficiently there would not be interference.
If the rear sight is fixed and your target’s distance is beyond its setting, then I imagine the “bull’s eye” would be obscured. Presumably if you’re trying to get a torso shot, you would aim for the hairline. If that approach won’t do it, I’d say it’s time for a scope.
I’m a current Lance Corporal in the Corps (Weapons Company 1/24). Yep, we qual’ed at 500 yards, and for some strange reason it was easier for me at 500 than it was at 200 or 300.
Nope, it’s not unlikely. We do it all the time. In fact, I just re-qualed last May.
It’s not boasting if you know you can do it. 
The A2 sights used on current M16s and some M4s have a calibrated elevation dial.
The sight deviation for 64" at 460 meters is less than a tenth of an inch for the sight radius of the M16. The front sight post might obscure the target but this is easy to work around. The rear sight is a peep sight that is too close to the shooter’s eye to focus on. When looking through the aperture all the shooter sees is a blurry ghost ring and the top of the front sight is aligned in the center of that. It sounds bizarre if you’ve never used one but it’s quite accurate. It’s fairly simple to align a bit further down the front sight post so it doesn’t obscure the target.
In my 7 years, I scored Expert 6 times. Twice with the A1, the rest with the A2. 9 out of 10 bullseyes at the 500 is a fair claim. The sighting system on an M16 is set up so that there is very little adjusting needed. Shoot the 200 and 300 lines, flip the rear sight (A1) or rotate the dial (A2) and you are all set for the 500 line, which is prone and very stable. Once the rear sight is set for the 500, there is no need to aim high or any other kentucky windage, just hold dead on target. Most people drop their shots in kneeling and the two rapid fire strings. I always counted on the 500 line to bring me at least 45 points.
Horseflesh a bullet does not rise when leaving the barrel. You are thinking of the standard depiction of a bullet’s flight path of going above the line of sight, then back down. The bullet doesn’t rise, it is simply following the line of flight, meaning the barrel is elevated above line of sight. This has to be done because a bullet immediately starts to drop when leaving the muzzle. The barrel doesn’t obscure any view because when the rear sight is raised, the rifle doesn’t rotate up at the front, but down in rear. The front of the rifle is the pivot point.