I see that you’ve never saluted a Chief! They have a whole repertoire worked out about how “You don’t salute me, Boy, I work for a living!”, but they’re usually grinning the whole time.
I’ve always wanted to reply, “Yes sir–but you deserve it more than some of these other assholes do.”
Okay, I just skimmed through this thread and saw all kinds of nonsense and urban legends everywhere! I am going to keep my response short because I’ve provided massive amounts of cites in past saluting threads to back it up.
Oh man, I always felt sorry for you officers at NPS, walking along the path with your hand glued to your head like that. I always figured it was annoying as hell.
Frankly, I never understood why they didn’t make an exception for environments like that, as it just looks comical.
Thanks, by the way. I had always(and still do) feel that salutes outside of formal settings are superfluous, and frankly just plain silly, but then I always remembered you guys, and figured as much as I disliked it, it could be worse!
I was taught that Army personnel may salute left-handed under particular circumstances. I’ll leave it to an actual soldier to explain.
When I was at NTC Orlando, some of my nuke buddies explained the “spread out” thing as being reserved for those ensigns who were on a power trip or who were particularly assholish. Otherwise, it wasn’t a big deal.
What about enemy officers under a flag of truce? Or out of respect?
Come to think of it, the tradition of salutes while walking also should go away. It’s really kind of silly.
Why is it silly?
The whole saluting is really simple. If he/she is senior salute. If he/she is junior, return the salute. It’s really second nature in a month or so.
And I’m frankly flabbergasted by all of the Army types saying that Officers aren’t required and/or don’t return salutes of Enlisted personnel. I’m not casting aspersions, but that NEVER consciously happens in the Navy or Marine Corps. As I noted up thread, if I failed to return a salute from a junior, fellow Officers would call me to task for that in a heart beat. I’m really surprised that my Army counterparts don’t feel the same way.
I’d still want to see a cite prior to believing this. As an ex Army type myself, it was commonly known that saluting is a requirement both ways.
Normally, I’d just say “Thank you, but I’m an NCO.” Way back in the day the Navy had “striker badges”, which were small brass pins designating the rating you were training for that you could wear on your work hat. In the case of a Construction Electrician, it was a telephone pole with a lightning bolt through it. In Vietnam I was posted to a Marine base and don’t know how many times I was saluted in the dim morning light, accompanied by the greeting “Good morning, Chaplin!”
Chapter 12, section 3 of the US Navy Regulations cover saluting:
(I hope that link works… if not, start here: http://doni.daps.dla.mil/navyregs.aspx )
I bolded that to show that officers must return a salute in the Navy.
It would appear that Army Reg 600-25 covers hand salutes:
(another PDF link) http://www.army.mil/usapa/epubs/pdf/r600_25.pdf
It is not quite as clear as the Navy Reg about the salute return being mandatory. It just says juniors salute first, implying (IMO) it is to be returned.
I was?
Chessic Sense said:
Balthisar said:
One of you wants a cite it is required and the other wants a cite that it is not required. I think you two need to get your heads together.
SoulFrost said:
“By your leave” is a request. “With your permission, sir, I would like to pass you to pursue my urgent task.” It’s one of those deference things, juniors get permission from seniors. The formality may be waning (just a casual greeting or “sir” to acknowledge the status difference), but the root of the tradition is in a formal request for permission to precede the superior officer.
AK84 said:
I would assume that an enemy officer under flag of truce is due the same respect as any foreign officer. It is, after all, about diplomacy.
I can believe that you’ve run into a lot of asshole Airmen, based on my experience dealing with my fellow airmen.
Personally, I like the salutes and standing to attention stuff, but I’m kinda weird. I like knowing where I fit in the social matrix, and the military makes that pretty easy to figure out (and having pinned on Senior Airman a few months ago, I am finally getting used to airmen actually legitimately wanting to know how I think something should be done.)
Most officers I’ve met have tended to be pretty cool, and will not get on you if you make an honest effort. Typically my greeting to officers is “Howdy, Sir!”. This has occasionally, much to my delight, gotten a “Howdy, Airman!” in response (I suspect those officers to be Aggies. “Howdy” is the required greeting amongst the ROTC cadets there). When an Army lieutenant popped out of a building unexpectedly right in front of me, I greeted him with a salute and a very crisp, professional-sounding “SHIT!”. He returned my salute and said “Afternoon!”
I work in an office, so if I run into officers over and over again, it’s because we are passing each other in the same building. For the most part, I’ll step out of their way and greet them verbally. In our squadron, it’s pretty much expected that the only officer you’d really ever stand up for is the squadron commander (higher ranking officers, such as the Group Commander or the Wing King, of course, get the room called to attention when they enter. CE is laid back, but we’re not THAT disrespectful)
If I was working outside with an officer, he’d only get another greeting if one of us left the immediate area. ie: If we’re both working on assembling a TEMPER Tent or an Alaska Tent, I’ll only salute him the first time I see him. Once we’ve finished building the thing, if one of us runs inside the tent for a minute and comes back out, a fresh salute would be warranted.
Now, if we were just kinda working in the same area, but not together, it’d really depend. I’m more than happy to just snap off a salute whenever I pass an officer, but then I consider it to be kind of a game, while my girlfriend considers it cause for a minor panic attack.
Uniform pet peeves: Army Class A’s. In Basic, they taught us airmen to salute shiny things, as with a couple of exceptions, our uniforms don’t INCLUDE shiny bits unless they belong to officers. The Army puts shiny shit EVERYWHERE on their uniforms. I was out of Basic for a week and a half before I saluted a Private First Class (their battalion insignia, pinned to their berets, resembles Captain’s bars)
Minor Army uniform pet peeve: Warrant Officers: Their rank insignia is a series of black blocks. Their camoflage pattern is a series of dots. You see how this gets a bit troubling sometimes. At the Army base I went to school at, the Army WO’s seemed pretty OK with just ninjaing past the airmen if nobody saluted them. We don’t have WO’s in the Air Force, so lots of folks tend to miss the saluting opportunity.
Navy uniform pet peeve: Chiefs’ uniforms. At least OUR Chief’s are kind enough to wear a set of stripes bigger than my ego. The Navy ones wear a uniform which, all together, looks an awful lot like a Lieutenant Commander’s uniform. I accidentally greeted a Lt. Commander with “Howdy, Chief!” (he did not like that) and later accidentally greeted a Chief with “Howdy, Sir!” and a salute (He didn’t seem to mind, but he did take up several minutes of my time explaining the minute differences between Chiefs’ uniforms and O4’s uniforms, when I was already running late).
And of course, with the Army ACUs, I have to look closely sometimes to figure out what someone’s rank is. Their rank insignia is on a patch in the middle of their chest. A few times, I have been intent enough on reading the rank that I failed to realize that I was staring at the bosum of one of my own female friends in the Battalion:smack:
The only thing I can think of where this would be OK would be if your right hand was in a sling or something. Barring an injured/missing right hand, I don’t think there’s any appropriate left-hand-saluting situation.
It’s because y’all keep using the word required. After an extensive internet dig, I can’t come up with a reg that clearly states that it’s required. I can, however, find a bunch of “etiquette advice” that calles it a requirement. Even the reg posted in this thread is pretty vague, and it’s the clearest statement I can find.
If you want to say it’s sorta de facto expected, then yes, I’ll agree. If I had to guess a number, I’d say 98% of my salutes are returned. The other 2% are instances of general awkwardiness like when the officer has been saluting a row of privates for the past 500 yds, or the officer just sorta appeared and you both more-or-less missed each other.
Oh come on. Surely you’ve seen officers without an antenna around them, even in the field. For instance, in a TOC where the antennas are OE-254s. The officers are no closer to them than the enlisted are. In that sense, yes, you’re joking. Or at least not being completely literal. I mean, I see what you’re saying, but I don’t want some civi lurker running to his friends saying “Did you know officers always have antennas around them? Vets on the Dope told me.”
All I know about POWS is what I saw in The Bridge on the River Kwai, but didn’t the British officers (POWs) salute the Japanese officers (enemy)? And don’t enemies, when meeting at a conference or other neutral territory, salute each other?
On a more modern and personal level, when I was in the US Army, I mentioned to a friend that I sometimes crossed the street to avoid having to salute a superior officer since it made me feel obligated. My friend pointed out that the officer was required to return my salute, and probably didn’t want to be bothered, but I was able to force him to do it anyway, and he was the one being obligated, not me.
A wise friend in many ways. Him, I would have saluted voluntarily.
Speaking as someone with no actual military experience but who’s been following the conversation, it seems to me that the whole salute-returning thing is probably not always **officially **required, but rather the kind of thing that is strongly, **strongly **suggested.
This actually reminds me of Japanese etiquette for saying hello. In America, I might run into someone at noon and say, “Hi,” and then run into them again at 2 p.m. and it’s, “Hi,” again. However, in Japan, if I ran into somebody at noon and said, “Konnichi wa,” then said, “Konnichi wa,” again at 2 p.m., they’d look at me kind of funny.
Awesome.
Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain, hero of Gettysburg, ordered his troops to salute the surrendering Confederates at Appomattox in 1865, a gesture that deeply touched the rebels and may have helped ease tensions after the Civil War.
Here, an American MP salutes the German delegation as it arrives to surrender in Reims in 1945: http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f?q=german+salute+surrender+rheims+1945&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dgerman%2Bsalute%2Bsurrender%2Brheims%2B1945%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26start%3D60&imgurl=56096b4d4be40666
Similarly, the Japanese delegation was saluted as it left the battleship USS Missouri at the end of the Tokyo Bay surrender ceremony in 1945: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/OnlineLibrary/photos/images/g470000/g472629.jpg. Japanese officers surrendering on Okinawa earlier that year saluted their captors: http://www.claytondeerparkhistoricalsociety.com/images/king_174_japanese_saluting_the_american_flag_during_the_surrender_cerimonies_on_okinawa.jpg.
Also, ISTR Gen. Schwartzkopf and the Iraqi officers who were negotiating the terms of a ceasefire at the end of Gulf War I in 1991 saluted each other when they met out in the desert.
Pakistani and Indian border guards (love those hats!) render honors to each other as their flags are lowered every evening: http://www.japanfocus.org/data/wagah%20border%20ceremony%20buggeredcameraflickr.jpg
The crowd in the background suggests that this might be a special occasion or ceremony of some sort… but I might be wrong.
From what I understand, there are always crowds. It’s like the Changing of the Guard at Buckingham Palace.
