US military WikiLeaks video release

[XT]

@elucidator

The reporter you cite goes on to say that the presence of a Kalashnikov or even two was not particularly noteworthy in that neighborhood, at that time.

No, it’s probably not. I haven’t read Red’s cite (I generally don’t, seeing the source), but do they go on to say that it’s an every day occurrence for members of the neighborhood to go out armed and in a group while there are fire fights raging in their area?

Here’s the thing. If you go out armed when it’s a nice, calm day and no one is fighting, then while it may carry some risks you will probably be ok. If you go out as a group, some of which is armed, but it’s a nice, calm day, then you will be increasing your risks, but you will probably be ok. But if you go out, armed, and in a group while there is fighting going on, then you have increased your risks by a fairly large factor. And if you are unlucky enough to go out, in a group and armed when there has been a helicopter dispatched to your area because a group of insurgents has been seen firing from your area…well, it’s going to be a really bad day for you.

I assume we are all on board now with the fact that at least some of these guys were armed, yes? So…does this change your mind any, 'luci? Can you see how the confluence of events could have caused such an accident to happen?

…Every neighborhood in Baghdad organized its own protection force. And it was legal at the time for every household to own a Kalashnikov in Iraq, and every household I ever went to did. So the presence of two men, dangling at their sides Kalashnikovs, in a crowd of civilians who have no weapons at all, I mean, is absolutely no—I mean, it’s—the whole thing is ridiculous…

Ironic that I said much the same thing a couple of pages ago and you sort of hand waved my assertion off, isn’t it? While the guy quoted is dismissive about it, I ask again…how is the helicopter gunner supposed know the difference between a group of armed insurgents moving about and an armed group of local citizens moving about in an area where there is ongoing fighting, and in an area where the helicopter was specifically dispatched to go and look for just such a group?

It’s not hard to see why the Iraqi’s are angry, pissed off and upset over this event. Put in their place, I’d feel exactly the same way. They knew some of the people involved, and presumably they knew what they were up to and why…and, also presumably, they knew that, while they were armed, they weren’t insurgents. However, considering what was going on, and considering what the crew of the helicopter knew and more importantly DIDN’T know, I don’t see how any reasonable person could conclude that the gunner was at fault. It would be like saying the reporter and the group escorting him were at fault. Neither side had perfect knowledge or knew what we know now. Both were working based on a set of assumptions that were flawed. And so, both made mistakes.

-XT

[Latro]

@xtisme

… And so, both made mistakes.

-XT

Uhm, no. It is still the gunner’s mistake.
And that only goes for the first shooting, shooting the van can not be called a “mistake”.

[XT]

@Latro

Uhm, no. It is still the gunner’s mistake.
And that only goes for the first shooting, shooting the van can not be called a “mistake”.

And you put no onus on either the reporters of the group of men with him moving about ARMED in an area where there are battles going on? :rolleyes:

I think at this point I’m done here. Everything that needed to be said has been said in this thread, and I’ll leave it to you and others to work up your RO without any further interference. Have fun.

-XT

[Algher]

@elucidator

The reporter you cite goes on to say that the presence of a Kalashnikov or even two was not particularly noteworthy in that neighborhood, at that time.
You were probably going to mention that, but fell victim to keyboard fatigue.

Sure, and I could have also pointed out the Darwin level stupidity that comes from walking around with an AK when there is gunfire in the area - instead of hunkering down at home.

But I am sure you were going to point that out too.

[Latro]

@xtisme

And you put no onus on either the reporters of the group of men with him moving about ARMED in an area where there are battles going on? :rolleyes:

Have you already provided evidence for this battle of yours?
Could be I missed it.

Do you think so many civilians would be walking around in the open street if there was such heavy fighting going on?

Oh, and onus?
I would think that any onus would fall on the one that invaded in the first place.
You started a war of agression, all consequences are on your head.

[Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party]

@xtisme

No, it’s probably not. I haven’t read Red’s cite (I generally don’t, seeing the source), but do they go on to say that it’s an every day occurrence for members of the neighborhood to go out armed and in a group while there are fire fights raging in their area?

Wouldn’t you be more likely to arm yourself and stick in groups if you hear gunfire?

[Evil_Jon]

What were these innocent civilians doing with a RPG? Oh, I know! Pointing a RPG down an road towards a US Humvee must be a common every day occurrence for innocent civilians that just want to gain political support for improved plumbing! Yeah, that’s it.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

After everything I’ve read and seen about this, it’s my conclusion that there were bad guys in this group. At least 1, probably 2-3. The helicopter pilot mistook the reporters cameras for 2 more weapons making it 5 armed guys (from their POV.)

[Terraplane]

@Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party

Wouldn’t you be more likely to arm yourself and stick in groups if you hear gunfire?

This was my thought as well. These people weren’t just arming themselves for the hell of it. They didn’t only carry gun in order to fire on US troops. They had to worry about sectarian violence as well. Is that firefight you hear in the distance US troops vs. insurgents, or is it your Sunni neighbors fighting off the Shi’a trying to murder them or drive them from their homes? Let’s peek around the corner and see…

Or maybe they were insurgents. It’s very possible that they were. Maybe even the unarmed ones were insurgents and later that day they would have picked up weapons and gone out to shoot at our soldiers. Maybe, aside from the reporters, it’s a good thing that all those men were shot. I think there are too many dead to justify with a ‘maybe’ but obviously other opinions differ. But even if they were insurgents, there’s still the van to explain. The apparently still living man being run over. The hellfire missile shot into a building 20 feet above an unarmed pedestrians head.

This all happens in one 40 minute span of one helicopter mission. It’s not a bunch of events spliced together to form a ‘worst of’ reel. The disregard for civilian lives is so constant and casual that at this point I’m starting to think that aside from the reporters this wasn’t even an exceptional occurrence. Wikileaks says they have more videos to come. I guess we’ll see.

[Algher]

@Latro

Oh, and onus?
I would think that any onus would fall on the one that invaded in the first place.
You started a war of agression, all consequences are on your head.

This statement is why this is a useless debate. **Xtisme **has tried to be rational, but when the only real response from the other side is that the war is bad and that we should not be there in the first place - there really is not a debate.

Hell - I agree. I wish we were not in Iraq too. However, once we are there I think it could still be a good debate on what the rules of engagement should be when fighting insurgents in a populated area. This is an issue in “civilized” war fighting that has been going on for years, in multiple wars, and can always use a refresh.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

@Latro

Have you already provided evidence for this battle of yours?
Could be I missed it.

Do you think so many civilians would be walking around in the open street if there was such heavy fighting going on?

Oh, and onus?
I would think that any onus would fall on the one that invaded in the first place.
You started a war of agression, all consequences are on your head.

It looked like to me that other than the group of men killed, there was nobody else walking around, no cars driving, etc. Think there’s a reason for that? The helicopter is 800km away. I suspect that due to the fighting on the ground throughout that day (as was reported) that everyone else had the common sense to stay indoors while there was active combat occurring in the area.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@Evil_Jon

What were these innocent civilians doing with a RPG? Oh, I know! Pointing a RPG down an road towards a US Humvee must be a common every day occurrence for innocent civilians that just want to gain political support for improved plumbing! Yeah, that’s it.

I don’t think anyone in the group had an RPG. I’m certain that nobody was pointing an RPG down any street at anyone.

The guy who does have a long object in hand is certainly very casual about it. I know that there’s likely poor protocol for transporting weapons among erstwhile insurgent type guys. Nevertheless, I find it hard to believe that they would rest one end up on the ground and kind of lean on it like the guy in the video does.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

@Hentor_the_Barbarian

I don’t think anyone in the group had an RPG. I’m certain that nobody was pointing an RPG down any street at anyone.

The guy who does have a long object in hand is certainly very casual about it. I know that there’s likely poor protocol for transporting weapons among erstwhile insurgent type guys. Nevertheless, I find it hard to believe that they would rest one end up on the ground and kind of lean on it like the guy in the video does.

The article I posted earlier in the thread claims that there were 3 RPG’s found at the scene, along with a handful of AK-47’s. And are you talking about the guy that looks to be peering around the corner while crouching down that the helicopter pilot sees when he’s coming around to make another pass?

[gonzomax]

EXCLUSIVE: One Day After 2007 Attack, Witnesses Describe US Killings of Iraqi Civilians | Democracy Now! Actually here is a film from a journalist who said 2 of the men had Klashnakovs dangling from their sides. Strange ,since it is a war zone and everybody has arms, can we shoot indiscriminately?
How about wedding? The Arabs shoot into the air in celebration, are they then good targets? We have shot up wedding parties before. is that OK?
This incident did not get America love and respect. It was a bad shooting and we should be ashamed of what we did.

[elucidator]

@FoieGrasIsEvil

The article I posted earlier in the thread claims that there were 3 RPG’s found at the scene, along with a handful of AK-47’s. And are you talking about the guy that looks to be peering around the corner while crouching down that the helicopter pilot sees when he’s coming around to make another pass?

Again, Fooey, in our imagninary conversation with an Iraqi whom we would like to have believe we are not his enemy, but his protector…

Do we say that we have an unblemished record, having never been engaged in a cover-up? Never having fabricated justifications after the fact?

[elucidator]

@xtisme

No, it’s probably not. I haven’t read Red’s cite (I generally don’t, seeing the source…

A cite is a cite is a cite, XT. Would you have read it if I offered it? Anybody else? What you got there is an ad hominem, coupled with a declaration of willful ignorance.

…And you put no onus on either the reporters of the group of men with him moving about ARMED in an area where there are battles going on?..

You may recall that this point is still under contention. Does capitalizing the letters change that?

…I assume we are all on board now with the fact that at least some of these guys were armed, yes? So…does this change your mind any, 'luci? Can you see how the confluence of events could have caused such an accident to happen?..

You are certainly welcome to your assumptions, but they impose no restrictions on me.

Can I see this as an “accident”? If by “accident”, you mean an unfortunate set of circumstances without human culpability, no, I can’t. When you hear the audio of the incident, do you hear men straining every effort to make sure than they are engaging the enemy, and only the enemy? I sure don’t. I don’t hear anyone offering a word of caution, I don’t hear anyone saying “Gee, guys, I’m not so sure here, maybe we’d best be careful we don’t tear up a bunch of folks with cannon fire when we ought not”. Do you hear that, and can you point out where?

…and I’ll leave it to you and others to work up your RO without any further interference. Have fun…

My outrage is not “recreational”, and, naturally, I resent your implication that it is. Which, of course, you can only prove by application of telepathic power. Have you such? No? Then, if you would be so kind as to refrain…

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

@elucidator

Again, Fooey, in our imagninary conversation with an Iraqi whom we would like to have believe we are not his enemy, but his protector…

Do we say that we have an unblemished record, having never been engaged in a cover-up? Never having fabricated justifications after the fact?

Fooey? WTF? What are you getting on about? What imaginary conversation?

As to your second sentence, the answer is certainly no and no. Of course we have. It looks like we tried to cover this up here by refusing to release the video for so long. That was wrong. In fact, after watching it, and knowing what I know about the US military and how it operates from first and second hand experience throughout my entire life, it isn’t as damning as I feared it would be.

The US government and the Pentagon are far, far from perfect entities (being comprised of humans and rife with politics) and our military has a pretty crappy track record of not only coverups but treating our own veterans like shit, at least until fairly recently. AFAICT, this behavior is not unique to the US military, but pretty much every other military ever.

I get your point. The video makes me ill, but not for the same reasons as it does you. It makes me ill because war just fucking sucks and it s sad to see people die violently. We need to withdraw our troops from there and refurbish our equipment, mend mental fences for our soldiers, and hopefully going forward be quite a bit more careful about the how’s and why’s of sending our young men and women into harm’s way.

[elucidator]

@FoieGrasIsEvil

Fooey? WTF? What are you getting on about? What imaginary conversation?

As to your second sentence, the answer is certainly no and no. Of course we have. It looks like we tried to cover this up here by refusing to release the video for so long. That was wrong. In fact, after watching it, and knowing what I know about the US military and how it operates from first and second hand experience throughout my entire life, it isn’t as damning as I feared it would be.

The US government and the Pentagon are far, far from perfect entities (being comprised of humans and rife with politics) and our military has a pretty crappy track record of not only coverups but treating our own veterans like shit, at least until fairly recently. AFAICT, this behavior is not unique to the US military, but pretty much every other military ever.

I get your point. The video makes me ill, but not for the same reasons as it does you. It makes me ill because war just fucking sucks and it s sad to see people die violently. We need to withdraw our troops from there and refurbish our equipment, mend mental fences for our soldiers, and hopefully going forward be quite a bit more careful about the how’s and why’s of sending our young men and women into harm’s way.

The use of Fooey is intended in cordial jocularity. If it offends, then I have misjudged you, and quite surely apologize. And the imaginary conversation refers to my post, upthread, about the difficulty in convincing the Iraqi people that we are there to protect them. I assumed you had read it and got the jist.

…but not for the same reasons as it does you…

I suspect our reasons are, in fact, very much the same. I have no argument whatever with the rest of that paragraph.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

@elucidator

The use of Fooey is intended in cordial jocularity. If it offends, then I have misjudged you, and quite surely apologize. And the imaginary conversation refers to my post, upthread, about the difficulty in convincing the Iraqi people that we are there to protect them. I assumed you had read it and got the jist.
I suspect our reasons are, in fact, very much the same. I have no argument whatever with the rest of that paragraph.

Ah. No, I wasn’t offended. I actually didn’t realize you were parodying my username at first blush. I thought you were saying “Phooey!”, but then I saw the bolding, and then…yeah.

A little slow on the uptake on that one…

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

@Mbossa

Pretty much, yeah.

Yeah, we’ve never been a noble nation, ever, throughout our entire history.

[ivan_astikov]

@FoieGrasIsEvil

It looked like to me that other than the group of men killed, there was nobody else walking around, no cars driving, etc.

What about the guy driving a van with two children in it? Do you think the kids were just a cover for him driving around and picking up dead bodies and guns, while helicopter gunships and army patrols are in the area, or do you think it was more likely that he was just going from A to B, and came across that scene of carnage?