There is now a legal difference. That wasn’t always the case.
We see both sides, but one side is clearly wrong. And nothing you posted has changed that.
Why? What is this shadow that you speak of?
The issue isn’t complex. Not even a little bit. It’s one of the least complex issues out there.
It was selfish of those girls to reveal their bigotry, of course.
You’re obviously blind. It’s complex because they don’t just hate gays. They really hate gays. You haven’t been to that community, so you just don’t know how they do things there.
No, but it’s complicated. Because LOTS of people hate gay people. All races. All religions. United to hate gay people. So we have to think hard before we defend gay people, especially if they’re going to serve the crunchy breadsticks at the prom. You wouldn’t want us to miss out on crunchy breadsticks, would you?
Yes I would. Because that’s what us gays do. We’re funcrushers. We take your fun and crush it. Like a soda can.
I’m so sry. I was a fool. You’re ttly right.
This isn’t just one group of ppl hatin on the queers, it’s a very diverse group of ppl.
You don’t hate diversity, do you?
DO YOU?
Have you heard the good news?
Heaven. It’s real.
IS IT SPARKLY?
I’m not going if it’s not sparkly.
Leave it to a queer to think Heaven’s sparkly.
This isn’t an Elton John concert, it’s fucking Heaven.
And you’re not allowed. The anus is a gate to Hell.
Well, vampire heaven is.
Damn it. I laughed.
I think there may be some cross-purposes going on here: Of course the moral issue is black-and-white simple. But the response is far more complicated. Giles lives close enough to all this that he really may actually have to get away from the ideals and into the practical. When a bunch of people hate something a whole lot, it is complicated to figure out a way to deal with doing the right thing when they don’t want you to. You do want to try and do what will produce the best results.
It’s one of the first things I learned in speech class in high school. When your audience are really your opponents, you can’t go in with guns blazing and expect to effect change. All that will happen is that the opposition will get defensive,
I think it’s a good thing that Grave is trying to get to the bottom of what causes this reaction besides the homophobia. Find out WHY the community has held on to its homophobic beliefs and address that. Even if you eliminate the hompohobia, these people are likely to find something else to be discriminatory about. We already saw this happen to women and to racial minorities.
And I think we stumbled upon it earlier in the thread, albeit obliquely, These people are seeing their way of life eradicated from them. The “government” is telling them what they can and can’t do. What used to be their little community that “handled their own” is now having someone from outside tell them what to do. And they are fighting back to preserve their way of life.
I really think that, if you got down to it, you would find that most people really don’t like the idea of being bigots. It’s just that, due to their monkeyverse, they have mis-valued bigotry as being less important than maintaining their town pride. When someone challenges their view, they’d rather kick that person out of their monkeyverse, and treat them like one of THEM who are fighting against US.
And now to get into the one thing Grave has not: WHY racism is different than homophobia: It’s easy to convince people that one’s race is not a choice, but it’s harder to convince that one’s sexuality is not. It’s just the nature of how people judge external differences and internal ones. Those that accept that sexuality is a choice then believe that they are choosing to be one of THEM. And thus they believe they are right to treat them poorly. If they wanted to be treated well, they should have chosen to be straight.
It’s a small difference, but it does make it that much harder to beat. Tie this in as many do to their religious structure*, a structure they are taught they are supposed to die for, and it becomes nigh impossible.
Fortunately, we’ve done the nigh impossible before.
*And, unlike racism, it’s there in black-and-white. You had to twist and contort the Bible to make it support racism. Homosexuality is literally forbidden in the text (at least as commonly translated). That’s right, you’re fighting the Biblical literalists.
Worst. Horror movie concept. Ever.
:rolleyes: Fighting on a national stage for the political rights of their students (assuming that it is accepted that it is a right), is not part of the job of a principal. They just run the school - crusades are optional.
I kNEW it! Plus, you have better dress sense. Dammit. :mad:
Well said, BigT.
When my kids have known gay kids from school, they don’t refer to them as “that gay girl”, they refer to them by name (“Jane”), especially if it’s someone they grew up with, just like these kids have with McMillen. I suggest that, from the other kids’ perspective, this isn’t about “that gay girl”. It’s about “Constance”, and whatever relationship she had with them. Her friends will back her up. Her enemies, not so much. So, some of the animosity that other kids have towards her is due to her personality (and theirs) and would be there whether she were gay or not. From outside, we can’t separate how much of it is due to that.
But on what basis do you think it’s her personality and not what she’s standing up for that they’re reacting to? I’m just not seeing what it is you think she’s done that’s so bad or why it’s her personality.
All that may be true, but the parents who were complicit should know better.
IMHO It is to punish her, to fulfill at least spiritually what the bible says she should incur for her transgression, obviously they didn’t get to the part yet that Jesus says that they person without sin is the one to cast the ‘first stone’ at her.
The only point that I could see is the school’s gender specific dress code.
I’m not seeing or knowing anything … just musing about human nature. I didn’t mean to say “it is this way”. I’m saying “it could be this way”. Don’t you think that the other kids interact with her based on their life experience with her, whether positively or negatively? They’ve probably known each other since before kindergarten. Oh, also I don’t think she’s done anything bad.
Yes. But I also have no trouble believing that for as long as she’s been openly lesbian (early high school perhaps?) she’s faced nothing but persecution in a mostly (sometimes fundamentalist) hardcore Christian high school.
I don’t think that by simply being gay she’s made into this great person. I don’t even particularly care that she demanded a letter. But the way she’s being treated, both in terms of the prom and all the gay-bashing that was going on on Facebook (or was it Flickster or one of those other sites?), she’s being made into a martyr.
Where’s Grave making a thread about how disappointed he is in the community for not planning things better? SURELY they should be attacking her in a more subtle way.