My understanding is:
Non-Jews cannot be buried in Israel regardless of whether or not they are Israeli or not
Non-Jews have siginificantly higher restriction in owning or leasing land in Israel regardless of whether or not they are Israeli citizens.
There is general institutional, social and legal discrimination against arab citizens. Its more than just legal distinction between citizen rights and the rights of others. It more than social tendencies to give more jail time to israeli-arabs than to israeli-jews convicted of the came crime or to investigate the murder of israeli-jews more closely than the murder of israeli-arabs. Arab congressmen get locked out and indicted for criticizing Israel or showing support for Palestine or Hezbollah. A Palestinian cannot gain citizenship through marraige to an Israeli but an American could. The government spends twice as much at Jewish schools as they do at Arab schools. The list just goes on and on. The specific details may be news to you but is it really that surprising that Israel discriminates against arabs on a legal, institutional and social level?
So really, is this thread about the OP having a bone to pick with Israel and/ or the US? Thats the vibe I’m getting.
I think the discrimination extends to Israeli arabs too.
Nope, I have a bone to pick with people who deny Israel is an apartheid state. Even while acknowledging the govt. is ethnically discriminatory.
I’m not assuming, I’m interpreting, just as much as you are in assuming “Arab” = “Arab tourist” and “2nd class citizen” = “US citizen”. Since the article is talking about Palatinian-Americans (and others) and their experience in Israel, I still see my interpretation as valid. There’s nothing to indicate to me that it’s not what he was talking about.
Having spent some time in Isreal, I can affirm the assertion of the OP.
Newscasts would mention that two or three Arabs had been arrested for the henous crime of spending the night inside the city limits of Tel Aviv, as they are required to return to designated arab villages prior to a Curfew. Simple, open statements of fact, with no discussion of the need for such regulations. These villages are surrounded by razor wire fences, with IDF checkpoints at a single gate.
Of all the nations that SHOULD know better…This is EXACTLY the same as Jews were treated in several cities of Europe 100+ years ago.
We may as well admit it: every state is an Apartheid state. Of course, this degree of adjectival inflation causes a corresponding drop in intrinsic value, but that’s life in a world where fascism is everywhere and death camps are on every corner with 2-for-1 baby-mulching specials on Tuesdays and Wednesdays, with Friday being reserved for mass puppy burnings and marshmallow roasting.
Only if you read the statement as** John** has, that the US citizens are being treated like Arab tourists. If you read it as I have, that the problem is that they are being treated like Israeli Arabs (rather than, one assumes, Israeli Jews), no leap is required. It’s all in how you read the sentence in the OP.
Oh, and to all those who keep drawing a distinction between Israeli Arab citizens and OT Palestinians, I guess you never minded if anyone played Sun City either.
If you like. But some more so than others. It’s like some girls’ mothers…
We’ve got members here based in Israel and up to now I’ve been assuming all of them were Jewish. I’d like to encourage them, if they have any non-Jewish friends or associates, to get them here as guests so we can get the straight dope as an antidote to Dibble’s dribbling.
That’s completely untrue. Oskar Schindler is buried at Mount Zion Catholic Cemetery in Jerusalem, along with presumably many other Catholics.
Okay, here’s an official State Department statement:
The [Israeli] government generally respected the human rights of its citizens; however, there were problems in some areas, including the following:
institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country’s Arab citizens
The cite is here.
And you can’t get much more categorical than that.
Okay, on a scale on one-to-ten, with the most racially tolerant society on Earth (I dunno… Sweden?) being one and Nazi Germany being ten, where would you place the following:
[ul][li]Modern Israel[/li][li]Modern South Africa[/li][li]South Africa of the 1970s (i.e. the orginal Apartheid state at its peak, before the slow reform processes of the eighties got underway)[/li][li]Modern United States[/li][li]United States of the 1950s (before Brown v. Board of Education)[/ul][/li]
If were going to start talking degree of Apartheid-ness, let’s make some estimates.
Yep, and also buried in the Saint Mary Magdalene Church in Jerusalem is one Grand Duchess Elizabeth of Russia, who became an Orthodox nun upon her husband’s death. She founded a convent and was murdered with other members of the Imperial family in 1918. She was the sister of Empress Alexandra. She has been declared a saint by the Orthodox church.
col_10022, got a cite?
Wow.
First of all, it doesn’t help to listen to the new if you don’t undertand what they’re saying. The Arabs being deported were Aplestinian citizens with day permits to work in Israel. Israel has no obligation to allow them in the country at all, and if their visa doesn’t allow them to spend the night in Israel, then damn right they should be deported.
Second of all, “designated Arab village?” WTF? They are deported back over the Green Line. That’s it.
Third of all, Palenstinian villages are NOT surrounded by fences (don’t bring up Tulkarm - that was wrong, and it was rectified). There is a fence along the Green line, yes, and there are roadblocks here and theere - unpleasent, to be sure, but necessary for security reasons. That’s it.
Lastly, do you really think that a regular news flash about something that happens on a weekly basis should be subject to deep political analysis. I mean, seriously - how do you think news programs work? The fact that something is strange and unusual to you doesn’t mean that it is strange and unusual to the people living there, nor should it be treated that way just because you don’t understand it.
And, obviously, I did read it the way John did, since I was agreeing with him. The way I read it, there are 2 parts of the statment:
-
That they are being treated as Arabs and not as Americans. I interpret this to mean that they are more concerned with their Arab nationality than with their American citizenship. This implies, to me, that there is a distinction between how tourists of Arab descent are treated, and how tourists of other descents are treated. It has nothing to do with how citizens are treated. Leading me to the second part of the statement…
-
That these Arab-American tourists are being treated as “second-class citizens.” This, as you may know, is a figure of speech. I could say that I am being treated as a second-class citizen by my boss…that doesn’t mean that I am citizen of the company I work for. I think it is a leap to make a connection between these two statements. You are adding words that are not there, and/or innuendo that is only marginally there at best. For example, perhaps you are reading it like this?:
“They are being treated as Israel treats their Arab citizens and not Americans,” one senior official said. “They basically treat them the same as they treat Israeli Arabs, who are considered second-class citizens.”
In my mind, that is a lot of inference to take from such a statement.
Cite that such a thing as a Palestinian citizen even exists?
I’m baffled by what some people believe about my country. I mean, non-Jews can’t be buried? Huh? Israel has over a million non-Jewish citizens. What do you think they do with their dead? FedEx them to Queens? Strip them for parts? Feed them to their goldfish?
Weird.
Note that no one other than you is reading it that way.
I wouldn’t deny that Arab Israelis face discriminations, but your cite does not imply that and it certainly isn’t apartheid. Just as every bad president is not Hitler, every society that discriminates is not an apartheid society.
tsk, and things were relatively civil. Bryan, you cunt, why did you have to go and ruin it by getting all personal-like? And what special insight could non-Jewish Israelis offer as to the US State Department’s dealings (unless they work in the customs&immigration office, I guess). Anyway, moving on:
8-9 Modern Israel
5-6 Modern South Africa
9 South Africa of the 1970s
6-7 Modern United States
8-9 United States of the 1950s (before Brown v. Board of Education)
…and modern Sweden is hardly a 1. Try being a brown immigrant there. It’s at least a 5-6. Maybe Andorra? Possibly the Vatican? Those might be 1.
Depends who you ask, of course, but the Palestinian Authority issues passports and other travel documents recognized by the U.S. Government for visa issuance purposes.