Wow, so you only add one point (9 -> 10) for gassing >6M people to death and starting a World War in which something like 50M people died. Dude, you need to get over this hard on you have for Israel.
John Mace, FWIW, I read it the same way Mr. Dibble did. And while not every society that discriminates is an apartheid society, any society that deprives legions of people of their rights purely on account of their ethnicity (for which read, Palestinians in the OT), is indeed an apartheid country.
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac]
John Mace, FWIW, I read it the same way Mr. Dibble did. And while not every society that discriminates is an apartheid society, any society that deprives legions of people of their rights purely on account of their ethnicity (for which read, Palestinians in the OT), is indeed an apartheid country.
[/QUOTE]
Except that Palestinians are ethnically identical to Israeli Arabs. The discrimination is based upon nationality, and it’s something theat every nation on the planet does as well: I mean, doesn’t every country treat its citizens better than it treats foreigners? Isn’t that the entire point of a country?
[QUOTE=Alessan]
I’m baffled by what some people believe about my country. I mean, non-Jews can’t be buried? Huh? Israel has over a million non-Jewish citizens. What do you think they do with their dead? FedEx them to Queens? Strip them for parts? Feed them to their goldfish?
Weird.
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Duh, I thought you guys used them to make matzoh! Doesn’t everyone know that?
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac]
John Mace, FWIW, I read it the same way Mr. Dibble did.
[/quote]
Are you seriously saying, though, that that is the only way it can logically be read? Are you certain I’m wrong in the way I’m interpreting it? Because those are two different things.
Nonsense. Palestinians in the OT are not Israeli citizens.
[QUOTE=John Mace]
Wow, so you only add one point (9 -> 10) for gassing >6M people to death and starting a World War in which something like 50M people died. Dude, you need to get over this hard on you have for Israel.
[/QUOTE]
He’s South African. Israel had too close of a relationship with the Apartheid regime in SA during the 80’s and 90’s - comraderie of outcasts, and all that. It’s not something we’re proud of. Our only excuse is that it was the Cold War, and everybody was doing stupid shit back then.
In fact… Mr. Dibble, if it does any good, I’d like to apologize for my country’s past actions regarding South Africa. I am too young to have been truly aware of them at the time, but as an Israeli citizen I bear my share of the responsibility. I’m sorry.
[QUOTE=Alessan]
Except that Palestinians are ethnically identical to Israeli Arabs. The discrimination is based upon nationality, and it’s something theat every nation on the planet does as well: I mean, doesn’t every country treat its citizens better than it treats foreigners? Isn’t that the entire point of a country?
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Yeah, but not every nation on the planet holds territories where millions of the occupants are citizens of nothing. In fact, Israel is the only one I can think of at the moment.
[QUOTE=MrDibble]
And what special insight could non-Jewish Israelis offer as to the US State Department’s dealings (unless they work in the customs&immigration office, I guess).
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They might be able to offer up personal observations of how they and their relatives are being treated, as opposed how an outside observer says they’re being treated? Something wacky like that, maybe?
So Israel gets the same score as Apartheid-era South Africa and only 1-2 points below Nazi Germany? Okaaaaay… I’m just going to smile and nod and back away slowly now.
So Bryan, how do you feel about the fact that for nearly 40 years, Israel has held some millions of Palestinians in the Occupied Territories in a condition of statelessness and rightlessness? You’re okay with that?
Personally, I think Israel deserves a few aspersions for that.
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac]
So Bryan, how do you feel about the fact that for nearly 40 years, Israel has held some millions of Palestinians in the Occupied Territories in a condition of statelessness and rightlessness? You’re okay with that?
Personally, I think Israel deserves a few aspersions for that.
[/QUOTE]
It deserves some but not all the aspersions for that situation. They’re not, in any event, 1-2 points away from needing a Normandy-style Allied invasion.
[QUOTE=John Mace]
Palestinians in the OT are not Israeli citizens.
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Exactly. Israel has made them citizens of nothing.
[QUOTE=Guinastasia]
Yep, and also buried in the Saint Mary Magdalene Church in Jerusalem is one Grand Duchess Elizabeth of Russia, who became an Orthodox nun upon her husband’s death. She founded a convent and was murdered with other members of the Imperial family in 1918. She was the sister of Empress Alexandra. She has been declared a saint by the Orthodox church.
col_10022, got a cite?
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Upon further review, I see that I was mistaken, Non-Jews (and even some Jews) are not allowed to be buried in JEWISH cemetaries. This seems reasonable to me. The rest of my points were straight off that state department web site.
[QUOTE=John Mace]
Wow, so you only add one point (9 -> 10) for gassing >6M people to death and starting a World War in which something like 50M people died.
[/QUOTE]
With 5 being average, and I’d say it’s logarithmic. The jump from 9 to 10 is huge.
Plus it’s ~11 million by most counts, that’s a lot of non-Jews you’re hiding under that > sign there. Guess they didn’t count as much.
[QUOTE=Alessan]
He’s South African. Israel had too close of a relationship with the Apartheid regime in SA during the 80’s and 90’s - comraderie of outcasts, and all that. It’s not something we’re proud of. Our only excuse is that it was the Cold War, and everybody was doing stupid shit back then.
In fact… Mr. Dibble, if it does any good, I’d like to apologize for my country’s past actions regarding South Africa. I am too young to have been truly aware of them at the time, but as an Israeli citizen I bear my share of the responsibility. I’m sorry.
[/QUOTE]
Everything seems to be the exception. Israel’s relationship with apartheid South Africa was a mistake, Tulkarm was a mistake, the disparity in treatment between Israeli arabs and israeli Jews is a mistake. At what point do all these mistakes evolve into a policy?
[QUOTE=MrDibble]
With 5 being average, and I’d say it’s logarithmic. The jump from 9 to 10 is huge.
[/quote]
But it still leaves nothing inbetween.
Yeah, I’m nothing but a filthy Jew-lover. :rolleyes:
Actually, the number of people gassed to death is lower than 11 or 6 million. Systematic massacres of civilians were often by other means, including mass shootings, if we’re going to substitute pointless nitpicking for actual, y’know, facts.
Let’s say the scale was not logarithmic, shall we? Pick whatever nation you think qualifies as most tolerant (I suggested Sweden - free free to substitute something else) and assume a linear (albeit steep) slope to 10 = Nazi Germany. I hadn’t suggested or implied a non-linear scale in my original proposal - you simply made that up to suit your position, which wouldn’t be the first time in this thread.
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
Actually, the number of people gassed to death is lower than 11 or 6 million. Systematic massacres of civilians were often by other means, including mass shootings, if we’re going to substitute pointless nitpicking for actual, y’know, facts.
[/QUOTE]
OK
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
Let’s say the scale was not logarithmic, shall we? Pick whatever nation you think qualifies as most tolerant (I suggested Sweden - free free to substitute something else) and assume a linear (albeit steep) slope to 10 = Nazi Germany. I hadn’t suggested or implied a non-linear scale in my original proposal - you simply made that up to suit your position, which wouldn’t be the first time in this thread.
[/QUOTE]
Assuming a linear scale, I’d put current Israel wherever apartheid SA falls. On a linear scale of apartheidness, with 10 = Nazi Germany and 1 being say Iceland, I’d put both of those at around 8. Happier?
Now show what else I “made up” to suit myself?
[QUOTE=John Mace]
Yeah, I’m nothing but a filthy Jew-lover.
[/QUOTE]
Aww, is the poor widdle guy a little bitter? c’mon, say what you really think - you know you want to … go on, call me The Name.
[QUOTE=Alessan]
He’s South African. Israel had too close of a relationship with the Apartheid regime in SA during the 80’s and 90’s - comraderie of outcasts, and all that. It’s not something we’re proud of. Our only excuse is that it was the Cold War, and everybody was doing stupid shit back then.
In fact… Mr. Dibble, if it does any good, I’d like to apologize for my country’s past actions regarding South Africa. I am too young to have been truly aware of them at the time, but as an Israeli citizen I bear my share of the responsibility. I’m sorry.
[/QUOTE]
Thanks, but that’s not really my beef with Israel, my problem’s with things as they stand now.
Let’s get a couple things clear, before we go on. - I fully support the right of Israel to exist, I don’t support terrorist actions against Israel, nor do I see Palestinians as blameless or martyrs. They have a large share of the blame by their unwillingness to compromise and negotiate in good faith. And the blowing shit up. But I do see them as oppressed, and Israel as the oppressor.
[QUOTE=MrDibble]
Assuming a linear scale, I’d put current Israel wherever apartheid SA falls.
[/QUOTE]
Okay, but you haven’t presented nearly enough evidence to make such a determination convincing. Are there Jew-only beaches in Israel, for example?
**Alessan **can weigh in on whether there are Jewish-only beaches (I suspect there are, in practice). There are certainly Jewish-only occupations – army (with minor exceptions), intelligence, positions deemed sensitive – as well as Jewish-only settlements, Jewish-only roads to reach those settlements, etc.