US Support for Egypt. Yes or No

Great Debates
1

My question is should the United States continue to support Egypt?

First, I would like to say that I am not a rascist. I grew up in a town that had heard of Muslims and I have a lot of Egyptian email buddies. I am also not Jewish and therefore am not simply arguing in support of those who have never forgotten Egyptian slavery. Please do not waste my time by responding along logical or empirical lines.

Anyways, don’t you think the United States would be better off if we discontinued our support both monetarily and diplomatically? I am not saying we should be against Egypt, but simply take a neutral stance on the issue. The United States provided more monetary support for Egypt in the last 10 years than any other country except Israel. We also share military technology with them. However, Egypt has frequently given our military secrets to OUR enemies, like Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Syria and Lybia. This is traitorous. Why do we accept this?

Also, the current hatred for the United States by so much of the European world in particular is based in part on our support for Egypt. If we withdrew our support, we might be able to turn the situation with the Europeans into a peaceful one. Look at it from the European side: the Europeans sponsored a rescue of Egyptians from tyranical, non-democratic rulers in 1956 and the US simply stopped them in their tracks and told the British and French “too bad.” If this were to happen to the US, do you expect that we would simply accept the foreigners’ interference and go about our business?

Yes, supporting Egypt was a good IDEA back at the end of the Holocaust (also known as the Carter administration). But it didn’t work out. So why keep going with our support?

2

I know it looks nicer without a link, and I know those of us who are awake will get it, but there’s been a fair bit of confusion about such threads. So, see U.S. Support for Israel: Yes or No?

3

Not a supporter of the OP in the other thread ( despite its numerous flaws, I still believe Israel is worth supporting, though not unquestioningly, for a variety of reasons ), but just in case you were intending to make a serious debate ( and if not your post belongs in the Pit ), I’d be interested in a cite for this…

Saudi Arabia is officially an ally and it is unlikely Egypt has access to much classified info it does not. Yemen is neither much of an ally or an enemy ( though the previous regime of South Yemen undoubtedly was hostile ). Syria and Libya have been on the outs with Egypt since the mid-70’s. So what was the security breach and how recent was it?

  • Tamerlane
4

While I would like to see the U.S. scale back its aid to Egypt and to use the threat of more scale-backs to encourage Egypt to wean itself from its authoritarian rule, I find so many errors inthe OP that it almost seem that it would be more fun to hack away at those.

Cite?

Cite? (Or even a reference to anyone who actually believes this, since it is obviously not true.)

Is there an actual historian that would characterize the events of 1956 as an attempt by “Europeans” to “rescue” Egypt? (As opposed to simply wishing to put their own power brokers in place?)

And just what major population was destroyed during the Carter administration (especially with the connivance of that administration)? (Or did you simply misplace your foil hat, this morning?)

5

That’s the first time I hear this one

Err…I would say more like : the UK and France sponsored a rescue of their economical interests in the Suez canal. You can try to convince me they acted out of concern for the poor opressed Egyptian people, but I’ll have a hard time swallowing that.

Sure, the british and french didn’t like the american stance at this time. But may I point out that it happened 50 years ago? British and french people most probably couldn’t care less now about this issue (that’s assuming they’re even aware of it, and I would guess the wide majority isn’t). And the governements are concerned with the current issues, not with the US interferences in 1956…

6

[Foghorn Leghorn]

I say, theah, Clair an’ Tom…Thass-a joke, theah, son. That Rampisad fella’s makin’ a joke…an’ a mighty fine one at that…heh heh heh…

those folks is about as sharp as a sack o’ wet mice…

[/Foghorn Leghorn]

7

Could be, bizz. Of course, that would imply that rampisad explicitly violated the rule that parodies must provide a direct link to their objects (and the implied rule that parodies belong in the Pit).

Sorry for missing the joke. (Since the original thread looked to be a rehash of all the old lines, I had not visited it since its first day and forgot the structure of the OP.)

8

I quote from my favourite author, Bill Bryson - Notes from a Big Country (page 385 in my edition)

Thank’s to hawthorne (onya, cobber, and didn’t Waugh’s boys play a blinder this weekend) and bizzwire for rescuing me!

To tom, my answer is that hawthorne did the job of linking to the other OP for me. As for this being a parody, it is not. The subject is perfectly valid, even if some of my arguments are as screwball as those in the other post which drove me to invent this one.

On a serious note :
American governments should, and generally do, do only what is in the interests of the American people. Anything else would be tantamount to treason, and I don’t recall any Presidents being impeachment for this particular crime. Now some of America’s so called friends may not like the fact that supporting Israel right now is ultimately in the long-term interests of the American people, but it happens to be true, just as supporting the rebels in Afghanistan in the 1980’s was ** at the time** in America’s interests in confronting Soviet expansionism. Nobody is saying that circumstances at some time in the future may not dictate that the level of support is modified, but right now, Israel represents a key ally of the US, and it’s defeat would represent a substantial threat to US interests in the foreseeable future.

9

“even if some of my arguments are as screwball as those in the other post which drove me to invent this one.”
Actually they are much more “screwball”. While I don’t agree with the conclusion of the OP in the other thread most of his points are defensible . For instance Johnathan Pollard did spy on the US for Israel and the information ultimately went to the Soviet Union. http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/7891/new_yorker_pollard.html
Your OP is just made-up nonsense.

Anyway the mistake that both you and and the other OP make is to simplify the US-Israel relationship to one dimenstion where the US must either support or not support Israel. But there are several issues and the extent of common interest varies. For instance the US and Israel have common interests in fighting Islamic terrorism and the US should certainly support Israel there. The US doesn’t have any interest in supporting Israeli settlements and occupation in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem and it should firmly oppose Israel there. The two positions are not incompatible.

10

Well…since parodies are usually found in the Pit, I assumed it was a thread prompted by the “Us support for Israel” one, but still serious. I’ve read more ludicrous statements than that in GD.

My mistake.

11

for Cyberpundit

I followed your “cite” of proof postive that …

There we find the following single relevant statement (emphases mine)…

Now pardon me for nitpicking, but do I not see words like “alleged” and “believed” in place of your statements of “proof”. And when did “The New Yorker” become a major source of high-level information on CIA theories rather than an arts magazine for Manhattan high-brows.

I find it nothing short of ridiculous to postulate that Israel would have gone out of its way to channel sensitive intelligence material harmful to its major, indeed only, supporter and give it to the major dedicated supporter of the Arab world and opponent of Israel in every field. However, I am at least prepared to acknowledge that this is my opinion ad not a statement of fact.

12

Bryson has obviously never paid attention to humor in the States–and you have obviously never read many of my posts. I assure you that irony is alive and well, here. (Which changes nothing about my being whoooshed on this occasion.)

However, screwball arguments tend to shape the discussion, and yours look like a Picasso painting interpreted by Dali.

13

Um in case you didn’t know the New Yorker regularly publishes major articles on current issues.If you don’t believe this go to their web-site and see their collection of articles about 9-11 and after. And when a major magazine quotes government officials as saying they “believe” something that seems reasonable grounds to accept that. Not 100% proof but in case you haven’t noticed you rarely get that in the world of espionage. For instance most of what we know about Al-quaeda and 9-11 comes from government sources.

14

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/pollard981023.html
Here is more information on Pollard. Note that he was sent prison in 1987 for spying for Israel so there is little doubt about that.

15

No-one in Israel has ever said Pollard is innocent. They have asked for him to be freed and sent home. The treatment he receives is way out of proportion to that meted out to others who have been caught spying in the USA. The only comparable case is the Rosenbergs in the 50’s (and if I mention that they were Jewish too, will you jump on me!).

16

“The treatment he receives is way out of proportion to that meted out to others who have been caught spying in the USA”
Like who?
Intelligence officials believe that Pollard obtained large quantities highly-sensitive information that ended up being going to the Soviet Union. In addition he was a Naval Intelligence officer who had high-security clearance. That sounds dead serious to me. Can you give me comparable examples of someone who was let off more lightly?

In any case the issue of whether Pollard got a fair deal is irrelevant to this thread. I have given evidence of the claim that Israel has spied on the US and passed on the information to the Soviet Union.

17

http://www.totse.com/en/conspiracy/institutional_analysis/pollfsct.html

The Facts of Jonathan Pollard’s Case

1.Jonathan Pollard was a civilian Navy intelligence analyst who, in the mid-1980s, discovered that information vital to Israel’s security was being deliberately withheld by certain elements within the American Administration.

2.Israel was legally entitled to this vital security information according to a 1983 Letter of Understanding between herself and the United States.

3.This information related to Syrian and Iraqi poison gas production and nuclear capabilities being developed for use against Israel, as well as planned terrorist attacks against Israeli civilian targets.

4.When Pollard discovered this suppression of information and asked his superiors about it, he was told to “mind his own business”, and that “Jews get nervous talking about poison gas; they don’t need to know.”

5.Pollard, who knew Israeli lives were being put in jeopardy as a result of this conspiracy, did everything he could think of to have the illegal embargo stopped and the flow of information restored. When his efforts met no success, he began to give the information to Israel directly.

6.Jonathan Pollard was an ideologue, not a mercenary. The FBI concluded after nine months of polygraphing that Pollard acted for ideological reasons only, not for profit. This fact was recognized by the sentencing judge.

7.In 1985, his actions were discovered by the U.S. government. His instructions were to seek refuge in the Israeli embassy in Washington.

8.When Pollard and his former wife sought refuge in the Israeli Embassy, they were at first received and then summarily thrown out into the waiting arms of the F.B.I.

9.Jonathan Pollard never had a trial. At the request of the U.S. Government, Pollard entered into a plea agreement, which he spared the U.S. a long, difficult, expensive and potentially embarrassing trial.

10.Pollard fulfilled his end of the plea agreement, cooperating fully with the prosecution.

11.Nevertheless, Pollard received a life sentence and a recommendation that he never be paroled, as the government violated every clause of the plea agreement.

12.Prior to sentencing, the then-Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger delivered a long letter to the sentencing judge, in which he falsely accused Pollard of being a traitor and demanded the maximum sentence allowable.

13.Pollard was never charged with treason, only with one count of passing classified information to an ally.

14.No one else in the history of the United States has ever received a life sentence for passing classified information to an ally.

15.Even agents who have given information to enemy nations did not receive such a heavy sentence.

16.Pollard appealed, but his appeal was rejected on a technicality:
that it had not been filed on time. Judge Williams wrote a minority opinion, calling the majority decision “a complete and gross miscarriage of justice.”

17.Jonathan Pollard was never indicted for harming the United States. This is a separate charge and there is no evidence to support such a charge.

18.Jonathan Pollard is now an Israeli citizen, who wishes only to lead a quiet, private life.

18

I am perfectly aware that the web is full of propoganda web-sites trying to free Pollard. There is no particular reason accept their “facts”. Why don’t you dig up credible news sources if you want a serious argument?

19

Cyberpundit …
Firstly, Bill Bryson is American, born and bred. Fortunately, he has had the benefit of many years living abroad, so he can judge the depth of the typical American sense of humour better than most.

Next, regarding Pollard …

Well, to coin a phrase, one man’s propaganda is another man’s truth, so let’s hold off on the rhetoric, please.

Howver, to keep it serious, how’s about this story about Pollard from the ConspiracyPlanet website, which even you would be hard pressed to classify as an arm of Israeli propaganda.

http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=38&contentid=559&page=2

Now isn’t that interesting - Pollard is the victim of US policy as carried out by the CIA! And Cuba and Iraq work closely together in intelligence. And thank’s to him, Saddam doesn’t have a nuclear arsenal. Not only should he be free, he should have a Congressional Medal of Honor (yes, I know, I know, he’s not eligible).

To come back to the subject under discussion. US aid to Egypt was part of a policy devised by the Carter administration to attract the Arab world along the path of peace and reconciliation. Show me a single instance where any of the tens of billions of dollars have gone to improve the life of the Egyptian people rather than prop-up a dictator who achieved his office directly as a result of the murder of his predecessor.

20

“how’s about this story about Pollard from the ConspiracyPlanet”
Jumping from the frying pan to the fire, eh?

Anyway about the aid to Egypt your post contradicts itself. It was designed, as you correctly note, to make Egypt take the path of peace. And it has succeeded even if it is a “cold peace”. That is better than a belligerent Egypt on Israel’s borders. It was not really designed to bring democracy to Egypt or to help the Egyptian people so its failure here is not really an argument against it.

Having said that I am at best an agnostic about the current system of aid to Egypt; I don’t think much of bribing countries with military aid as a long term policy.