I spent 20 years in the United States military and nobody is ever responsible for the actions of his peers. One is responsible for his own criminal actions. That’s why the entire military isn’t in the brig (stockade), just the crooks.
Monty, when I was talking about the military being “held responsible” I really meant the leadership (in this case there really needed to be some examples made among the enlisted men too, though). Obviously I wasn’t calling for the entire armed forces to be collectively punished but I would like to see some accountability from leadership. I’d like to know why the CO’s apparently sat and watched this stuff go on for as long as they did.
Okay, DtC. That’s a different issue. That’s failure of leadership.
Here I am!
(You forgot to call the critics “historical revisionists.”)
That is all.
Bullshit, Monty, no one who has even served in the military could say he wasn’t punished for something someone else did. Now you’re right in that no one is ever legally responsible for the actions of his peers, but leaders are often unhappy with a unit as a whole because of the actions of some individuals within it. If the aforemention Seaman Recruit Fuckup (I figure the Navy needs an opposite to the popular A.J. Squared-away) does something illegal like giving booze to minors out of his barracks room, the other barracks residents wouldn’t be prosecuted but I can definitely imagine some people in the chain of command would have harsh words for the entire group and revoke privileges (like the right to invite non-residents, or possess liquor).
UnuMondo
Gotta concur with Coldie here: If the smokes and bottles disappear from the taxfree store, that is one thing. Not very commendable, nothing that’ll ever be part of the regimental history, but sorta understandable. Stern talking-to, curtailed privileges, a couple of nice long marches in the sun to wear off the booze and the offenders will be guarding a square mile of desert 50 klicks from civilisation until attitudes are deemed changed. Isn’t that the way it works in any military ?
I was sure as hell told that anything I did in uniform reflected on my regiment and the Army, and that the Army would take the needed steps to fix my attitude if I didn’t take that responsibility very seriously.
The planes, though… Someone with a commission and (presumably) a clear mind must have seen those planes being thrashed, and that officer has failed. Badly. It doesn’t matter who owned the planes - there was a $100 million dollars worth of planes, now there’s scrap metal, for no reason at all. If I wore the same uniform I’d be ashamed. And I’d want to be able to point to the career(s) that were broken as matchsticks as a consequence - to say that yes, those people failed, they won’t fail again because they’ll spend the rest of their career in charge of the Air Force toilet seat restoration facility in Alaska.
It is up to the US military to redeem itself, here, and having a spokesman say “These are just bored soldiers” is no help at all.
Maybe Diogenes has enough confidence in his posts that he doesn’t have a need to bolster them with the additional gravitas of his rank?
Well, I’m not so sure about this. There is an argument that a moderate degree of looting is the right of the conquering soldiery. Kippling wrote a poem about it. Deplorable? Sure. Expected and tolerated to an extent? Yes. A moral out rage and a blot on the honor of the United States? Not really.
You turn a 19 or 20 year old kid who has just spent 30 or 60 days camping in the dessert and a couple of weeks on campaign, all this time living on field rations and drinking bottled water, and turn him lose in a duty free shop nearly anyone can guess what is going to happen next. The kid is going to help him self to a couple of creature comfort and recreational indulgence items. You turn a couple hundred kids lose and there is not going to be much inventory left, especially, on the consumable shelves. Nothing quite like a couple pounds of Lady Godiva chocolate and a good cigar to top off a road march from Kuwait to Baghdad.
As far as seats from the airliners go, again think of the 19 or 20 year old kid who is faced with the prospect of spending a couple months sleeping on gravel under a shelter half. The kid and his tent mate are going to build hooch and try to make the place a little homelike. What better than a set of seats out of an airliner?
I suppose the NCOs and junior officers knew what was going on, if they did not actually get a fair piece of the good stuff. I suspect the senior battalion, brigade and division officers knew what was happening. I suppose that the prevailing attitude was that if it gave the troops a little pleasure and comfort and did not amount to wanton destruction and commercial, industrial looting, or deprive some local citizen of private property, let it go. God knows a kid at the pointy end of the spear has few enough pleasures and comforts.
The people who were angry, I expect, were the follow up troops who found the place pretty well cleaned out by the time they got on the ground.
This is not a demonstration of the depravity of the armed forces. It does not establish a failure of leadership. It is just cutting the kid on the ground with a rifle in his hand a little slack.
SG: *The kid and his tent mate are going to build hooch and try to make the place a little homelike. What better than a set of seats out of an airliner? *
This is the line that convinced me your whole post was just an exercise in sarcasm. Airplane seats = homelike. Yeah. 
100 million dollars worth of damage is “cutting the kids some slack?” Those airplanes did not belong to the US Military. The NCO’s and junior officers did not have the right or authority to allow that destruction. They took resources away from the people they were supposed to be “liberating?”
This is not the middle ages. We don’t plunder any more. As I said before, I can easily put myself in the shoes of those soldiers. I can totally understand the motivations that would lead to the raiding of the store. I can even understand the desire to find something more comfortable to sleep on but that desire doesn’t translate to an entitlement to ravage civilian airplanes. The grown ups needed to step up and take charge there. Who ever was in command when this happened behaved unprofessionally and unethically. I do not buy the excuse that those kids were entitled to steal and destroy civilian property because they spent a couple of weeks in the desert. If US troops can’t be trusted to protect civilian resources who can?
Spavined Gelding (my italics)
From the link:
This isn’t wanton destruction in your book ? These kids were acting as punks, and they did so wearing your country’s uniform. Apparently, noone saw it as their duty to put a damper on their little rampage.
I’ll cut the slack as regards booze and cigarettes. I see no reason to come up with excuses for breaking 5 serviceable airplanes for the heck of it. Liberating Iraq does not mean destroying Iraqi property for a grin. It’s a disgrace to the uniform, to the ideals that soldiers are supposed to defend and it’s fuckin’ counter-productive.
Nothing was gained. Valuable property was destroyed. And the Iraqis got another reason for resentment. Good job, soldiers.
I see you touting bullshit in that posting there, UM. Let’s try to keep it down to a minimum, okay?
[qutoe]no one who has even served in the military could say he wasn’t punished for something someone else did.
[/quote]
I can tell you that I’m not including the so-called group punishment (pushups) during Basic Training. Since we’re talking about a legal issue, I think it’s safe to discount that. Otherwise, you’re talking out of your hat.
Since we’re talking about a legal issue, that’s all that matters, isn’t it?
Unhappy? Hah!
Seaman Slacker is, I believe, the latest term.
Keep imagining. The only issue there is that the person who violated the regulation is the one who violated the regulation. At any rate, mass punishment is prohibited. Try to keep up with the calendar, okay, it’s the 21st Century.
UnuMondo **
[/QUOTE]
They were probably just taking out their frustrations after having to clean all the whipped cream out of their gear.
I am so very sorry. This is why I rarely post.
Gah! I love you both to pieces (especially my husband!), but this whole “slap on the wrist” attitude and “let them have their cigarettes” is just so wrong. It’s not that I don’t understand the temptation. But by the same token, they weren’t stealing from the fallen government’s coffers, or some faceless “store”, they were stealing from a person – a private individual! And in this case it’s even worse because those are the people we’re supposed to be in that country to protect, not steal from!
How can you guys so casually brush off the loss suffered by this man? These were his things and our people stole them for their own selfish benefit without care or regard to a fellow human being. I find that dispicable to the extreme. I’d call for their courtmartial for that alone!
Add to that the wanton destruction of hundreds of millions of dollars of equipment that will have to be replaced using my and my fellow tax payers’ money and I want them courtmartialled and strung up by the balls, with their future earnings attached for the rest of their lives and on into perpetuity to their heirs until every freaking dime is paid back.
The sons-of-bitches, in essense, have stolen from me, too, and I’m DAMN PISSED OFF about it. I loathe thieves. I want them to PAY for this.
Bastards! (them, not you guys)
If they want to tear stuff up they should go to college and wait for their team to win a championship.