US soldiers robbed the duty free store, shot the place up and severely damaged several airplanes. The airport had already been secured at the time this stuff happened. There was no enemy. Our guys were just having a good time.
A hundred million dollars worth of tax payer money lost to to stupid, mindless petty theft and vandalism. I want to know why these animals weren’t put under control from the beginning. I want anyone who stole anything or damaged anything to be fucking court martialed and I want to know why the US military is never held responsible for anything it does. This is gross incompetence by military leadership, and it’s not the only example.
Wait, I’m getting something from my psychic powers…
It didn’t happen, until the cites come in that it did, then it won’t have happened that way, until the cites come in, then it will have been for a good reason, then it won’t matter because the greater good was still served, and the whole time you’re only bringing it up because you have an irrational hatred of Bush and can’t find anything of any substance whatsoever to complain about.
I’m sure I missed a couple, but somebody will be along shortly to fill in the gaps.
Just in case you’re serious, Baghdad Airport was civilian territory not “enemy” territory…and there was no military purpose in trashing it. They were supposed to be protecting it.
If you were being sarcastic please disregard this post.
I want to know why you lump everybody in with the people who break the law.
I also want to know when you plan on volunteering and setting a good example for the rest of the military, since we’re all miscreants anyway and we get away with everything.
I may not be able to pick my battles, and you may not have liked this one, but one day you’ll thank me and the rest of us.
It’s important to stress that these despicable actions were the work of some, not all. Unless proven otherwise, of course. I’m sure, unless cites tell me I’m wrong, that the vast majority of US troops behave properly towards the people of Iraq.
The stories we see in the news are the exceptions, but they need to be pointed out. This is serious misconduct: smashing up perfectly functional civilian planes? In a country that needs to be rebuilt as soon as possible (something which the troops knew going in)? That’s beyond stupid: it harms US interests directly. Because I doubt the soldiers were smashing up 737’s so that Boeing could get a couple of contracts again in these dire times (although that would be spectacular too, in a sad way). Is Iraqi airways a privately owned company? If so, then I think the only way to solve this is for the US to either pay for the repairs of the planes, or provide new ones free of charge.
And Airman: the fact that Diogenes isn’t in the military, or doesn’t have the desire to ever be, does not disqualify him from forming an opinion. He doesn’t have to “set a good example for the military” - he’s free to be pissed off by what US troops are doing, especially as he presumably pays taxes to fund said troops.
I don’t pay US taxes, but I’m rather annoyed by this, too. If I were in your shoes, I’d be doubly pissed, as a few bastards seem to be discrediting the entire US forces here.
That makes the matter a little more difficult, however, since Desert Storm II was about overthrowing Saddam, those planes would have been for the people anyway, right? Or, at least, these planes would logically be transferred to the successor of Iraqi Airways, be it state owned or privatised. Whomever it is that was going to receive those planes, they should be compensated.
Destruction of state property of a civilian nature was explicitely against US policy, rather obviously destruction of these planes adds to the overall bill.
Certainly reducing the viable assets of the company, which will eventually be privatized I would think, does nothing to help US goals. It’s particularly discouraging, if the reports are accurate, that the military did not exercise more due care in these contexts.
When military people do bad things, some are always quick to say “You can’t judge the military because of a few of its members”. This protest seems strange to me as a Navy veteran. In the military it was often emphasised that you are responsible for the actions of your peers. It starts at boot camp. Seaman Recruit Fuckup didn’t mop the floor right? The entire division drops and gets beat for a couple of hours. Hell, even after boot camp, living in barracks, someone trashed a bathroom, and then some officers decided that the appropriate punishment would be to have the barracks residents clean the bathroom three hours every single night for three weeks. The military is often proud of its tradition of being one giant machine acting in perfect unity. When bad stuff like this happens it and its defenders can’t just go back on their pride and say “Whoops, must have been a few bad apple”. You have to accept that the organisation at large must be at fault in some way.
Midshipman are US Naval Academy students. I feel sorry for someone who has been in the Naval Academy long enough to retire.
I have to agree with Unomundo about the unity of the military. Which makes other scandals look very different, I must say. If we succeed as a group, but fail as individuals, then everyone else gets away with it.
These soldiers are supposed to be under control of the USA command and if they are not then the US command is to blame. Besides, it was US command who sent them there in the first place and who is responsible for what happens.
I do not blame the soldiers in any way for fighting a war I consider illegal and unjust. They are doing their duty and that ios what they should do: obey orders. The politicians who gave the orders are responsible for what the soldiers do, good or bad.
Great points, UnuMondo. I also was under the impression that an important credo of the armed forces was collective responsibility, and it’s good to see a former military person confirm this.
What’s perhaps even more interesting is that some in the military are happy to bask in the collective glory when everything goes well, but are quick to call for making distinctions when shit like this happens. Airman Doors, either it’s all “all for one, one for all” or it’s not; you don’t get to pick and choose depending on how the actions in question reflect on the military in general.
And your sarcastic call for Diogenes to volunteer was stupid on two levels, as others have pointed out.
Diogenes has already served his country.
The idea that one cannot criticize military actions without being in the military is intellectually and morally repugnant. If that’s the sort of attitude that prevails in the military, may we presume that you’re saving America for fascism, rather than democracy?
Also, as far as i could tell, Diogenes was calling for the individuals who carried out this action to be punished. And his accusation of “gross incompetence” by military leadership is well within the standard form of criticism for any hierarchical organization–that is, those at the top bear ultimate responsibility for what their underlings do. This is the same in government, the bureaucracy, and the corporate world. If discipline at the lower levels is such that things like this occur, then it is reasonable to ask whether the top brass is running the military properly. Jeez, i thought you military types were familiar with the “chain of command” idea, and the fact that it runs both ways.
Hello, Airman.
As has been pointed out already I served in the Navy in the eighties after I graduated from high school. I come from a military family. My father was in Vietnam.
I didn’t serve in combat but I have some idea of the group mentality that develops in the rank and file and the military. I’m sure that once the airport was secure it started out small…a few guys pilfering cigarettes from the fduty free store, then some liquor, then anything that wasn’t nailed down. When people are acting as a group it’s easy to get caught up in it, especially in a culture which deliberately nurtures a group mentality and deemphasizes individualism. To be honest, I’m not sure that I wouldn’t have done the same thing when I was an eighteen year old kid in another country, armed to the teeth, with the feeling of power and entitlement that comes from being part of a conquering force, especially if all my friends were doing it too.
That’s where military leadership comes in. Where were the grown-ups in this situation? The COs needed to step in from the beginning and spell out what would and would not be accepted. I don’t understand why this was allowed to go as far as it did, and I’d also like to know if any disciplinary measures have been taken against the worst offenders. This is a failure of leadership above all.
I can see “borrowing” a carton of cigarettes from the duty free store. Not as it should be, but small potatoes. These guys just conquered Baghdad, let them have their free cigarettes (and perhaps some booze).
But systematically stripping the interior of a 737?
I mean, it’s not like you can do that sort of thing out of view. You can’t just drag the damn plane behind the bushes and pull the chairs out. The CO’s must have been able to witness this behaviour, and they were either OK with it, or not powerful enough to stop it. Whichever is the case, they REMAIN responsible.