Using a new job offer to negotiate with current employer

Factual Questions
21

[QUOTE=abby]
With that attitude, you’re certainly not someone I’d employ.

[/QUOTE]

No worries! Plenty of other people want to employ me!

[QUOTE=abby]
I guess it depends on a range of reasoning. If you’re one employee out of thousands, I guess you’re less likely to care about this kinda thing. But if you’re one in 10, you may not count your boss as your friend, but you might have a bit more respect for his concerns, and how you departing with no replacement might affect the business.
[/QUOTE]

You’re right, I don’t worry about how my leaving will affect the business. I’m a programmer, it’s not my job to worry about that - it’s the managers and owners job. If my leaving is going to cause such a gap, then make it so I don’t leave. As others have pointed out, I can’t keep my new job waiting for much longer than a few weeks.

Fifteen years ago, I would have agreed with you on this one. But I’ve also come to learn that loyalty is something that most companies see as a one way street; they want their employees to be rabidly loyal, but at the same time will usher people out for next to no reason and no notice. I’ve seen husbands and wives laid off on the same day, leaving the family with no income. I’ve seen massive layoffs with no notice at all - just “clean out your desk, you’re gone.” I’ve seen good employees fired because the Big Boss decided he didn’t like them.

If the company reserves the right to fire (or “lay off”) my ass at any time for no reason, then two weeks notice is more than enough time for an employee to give, in my opinion.

22

This worked in the past for me. Last time I was looking for a new job I had two very strong potentials. I accepted one position and started work. Within two weeks the other option came through with a offer letter. They offered me $3 more/hour and City Benefits. I took this letter to my new employer, and not only did they match it, they beat it.

Damn, I must be REALLY good if they could see the value in only two weeks.
ringing my own bell for a change!

23

As an employee & now-department head & former small business owner, I agree with the concensus to date.

I pay my folks what they are worth to me, tempered by what I can afford. In our industry salaries are volatile & I can’t give everybody a bump just because XYZ Corp is paying extra this month because they’ve got a new project starting & there’s a shortage of whatever skills they need.

When someone comes to me with an offer for significantly more money elsewhere, I tell the truth: “I’m very happy you’re succeeding in your career. Good luck at your new job. Just make sure the rest of the deal, responsibilities, working conditions, etc. are really better for you. If so, go for it.”

The one thing we will not do is counter-offer. As a matter of policy, we will not get into a bidding war over a specific individual. Ditto when hiring & a candidate tells us he/she has competing offers. I really hope each of my employees succeeds, and I hope they succeed with us. We pay what we believe are competitve wages for good working conditions.
The reality in the US is the same work can be compensated at wildly different rates between companies & even between workers in the same department. I cannot let my costs be dictated by some other company’s possibly dysfunctional wage policies.

Occasionally this costs me a good employee. But far more often it lets somebody who’s a C+ performer here move on gracefully to something he/she thinks is better. And I get to replace them with a (I hope) B+ player without the morale impact of a termination. Folks looking for work often become less participative in the social team-related parts of the workplace, and that’s a loss too. The sooner they get that out of their system on way or the other, the better for the whole team.

Having said all this, I pay good wages with good longevity increases & I try to have nothing but good-to-great people; no slackers or goofs… If the OP’s company is paying shit wages & relying on a friendly workplace (or employee guilt) to get workers to give the company a 15% subsisdy on labor costs, welll screw them. The OP is right to look for better paying work and right to take it.
One last comment. When someone does give 2 weeks notice, we usually keep them for 2 days (enough time to get somebody else familiar with their work in process) & pay them the rest of the two weeks if they’ve been with us over a year. If it gets unpleasant, the pay ends at the 2 days. If it gets ugly, the pay & the work end at the end of the conversation about the other offer.

So don’t assume your paychecks won’t stop about 5 minutes after you tell the boss.
One parting comment: do NOT bluff. You must be 100% ready & willing to leave before you tell anyone. And that means you must get a written offer from the new employer first. Unless your current employer is some gigantic corp you only need a couple of workdays’ decision period for the offer letter. IOW: get the letter, tell current boss. His/her answer will be either instant or within 1-2 days. Then tell new employer result. Then live with the outcome, whatever it is.

Good luck. I really mean that. But if you follow through, I bet 10-to-1 you’ll be working elsewhere soon. Make sure you know what you really want because the process is largely out of your control once you open your mouth.

24

Asking for a raise can be a dicey thing. I remember the first time I asked for a raise. It had been a year since the company gave me a substantial raise, but during that time I had been given additional responsibilities and feeling quite cocky about myself.

My employer’s response was “We would hate to see you leave Dutch, let me get back to you”. The implication was quite clear to me. If I was rejected, the honourable think would be to quit. Rejection would be uncomfortable for both sides and certainly affect our future relationship. I was on pins and needles until the raise was given. I never asked or had to ask for a raise from that company till I left 5 years later.

Do you think you’re underpaid? If so the best thing you could do is to properly prepare your case and make your employer aware of what the market is offering you. Don’t say you’ll quit if you don’t get it, that will feel adversarial, but be assured that it will be understood. Good luck !

25

[QUOTE=Potato Pancakes]
I know. Even if it goes well, I’ll still feel a burden to be an exceptional employee and feel that the quality of my work will be viewed in a different light, maybe filtered through higher expectations. What I actually have is a supervisor who I can pretty much talk to about anything, and a manager who makes the actual calls on stuff like this. I never really talk to him that often even though I’ve been there 4 years. I regret not getting to know him as he is a very decent guy. He’s a bit temperamental about harsh client demands and rude sales staff, but when it comes to management duties he’s a good leader and never a micromanager. Neither is my supervisor either, for that matter. All reasons why I’d love to keep working there.
[/QUOTE]

Why not talk to your supervisor first then? Say you have this offer and what would the company position be? That way you might be able to get some feedback about the likelihood of a potential raise with any of the “threatening to leave” situation with your boss. You can phrase it as “I don’t want to leave but the money is tempting me, what do I do?” dilemma to your supervisor.

26

In general, if I was serious enough to send me resume, do the interviews, & negotiate the deal, there is little chance I am interested in staying with the current job even if the money was bumped up to match. In business, if you pay employees market rates & treat them well they generally don’t start looking. Once they start to look, it is only a matter of time until something catches their eye.

I am a bit surprised at the notion that one should have “consideration” for your current employer’s needs and the impact your departure would have on the company. In the current business market, I know of few businesses that give similar "consideration to the employee’s needs and the impact of eliminating the job (or sending it offshore) on the employee. Usually, it is a nominal parting gift either way - 2 weeks notice or severance, if that. The days of loyalty to the employee are long past it seems. It is unreasonable to think employees will have any more than what loyalty they receive when they are on their way out.

27

[QUOTE=Fear Itself]
In your opinion, what is a reasonable period to expect from a departing employee?
[/QUOTE]

We have four weeks in our contracts with employees. Some offer more, some ask for less. I always try to work out something that’s fair.

Of course, we have exit strategy discussions with each employee every three to six months anyway, so these things do not creep up on us.

28

I want to reiterate what someone said before- don’t even mention this to your current employer unless you are willing to leave. I know someone who used a better offer to negotiate a raise. He got a raise, but it didn’t match the other offer. He stayed anyway. The fact that he stayed told his boss that he didn’t really want to leave- not for more money, better working conditions, or a shorter commute ( all of which the other offer would provide) . And the boss is now using that knowledge to take advantage of him- days off are canceled and work schedules changed on short notice, because the boss suddenly wants to leave early or take the day off. This happened before the offer, but has now become more frequent since the boss knows my friend won’t leave.

29

[QUOTE=Fear Itself]
In your opinion, what is a reasonable period to expect from a departing employee?
[/QUOTE]

No more than two weeks, unless your employER would offer less. In other words, if they lay dudes off with no severance pay or notice, then you owe them that much.

30

I agree with some opinions here. I am in software too and over the years it seems to be quite common for star developers to get another offer, tell the boss that they are leaving, and then get a counter-offer during the ‘please stay’ plea from the boss. However, for the non-star employees the discussion was usually ‘Congratulations, let’s set your last day’.

Personally I have never been comfortable with the counter-offer technique as either an employee or a manager. As an employee, I’ve always felt that if you feel you deserve a raise, you should make your case to your boss and give them a chance to set things right. Obviously, if they don’t agree that you deserve it, then you look for another job and don’t look back.

As a manager, I’ve felt that once an employee goes through the heartbreaking process of building the gumption to look, writing the resume, and then interviewing, then their heart isn’t there anymore. It would be a matter of time before the glow of a counter-offer wears off and they realize they are still unhappy at the same job. Most of the developers I know really, really don’t want to look for another job; it takes a lot to get them motivated to start.

And as everyone else said, don’t bluff – you may have a manager that is a naive as I am. When I first started managing, I had a lot of developers that were really down on everything: the company, the product, the pay, each other, everything. One day one of my key developers told me he had a couple of offers and that he was resigning. I liked the guy and was bummed that he was leaving, but I knew from my own experience that when it is time to leave, it is time to leave. So, I told him that I was sorry he was leaving, was there anything I could do?, congratuations, and good luck. Months later I find out from someone else in my group that he didn’t really want to leave; he had been hoping I would give him a counter-offer and he wouldn’t have to move. It hadn’t occured to me that someone I (thought I) knew well would play that angle.

So my advice would be: if you feel good about the new job and don’t have misgivings, then just take it and don’t look back. However, if you really want to stay at your current company, simply ask your boss for a raise and provide a compelling case why you deserve one. In other words, from the company’s perspective, why you are worth more money. If they don’t agree or try to delay it until the next month, next quarter, or next review period then just give notice. The good side being it will make the exit interview really easy.

31

[QUOTE=abby]
We have four weeks in our contracts with employees. Some offer more, some ask for less. I always try to work out something that’s fair.

[/QUOTE]

In California, and I think in most of the US, there are no contracts, only employment at will. It’s already been mentioned that an employer can kick someone out immediately - likewise someone could leave immediately, but that is unlikely to happen in a professional job. (Happens all the time in fast food jobs.)

Different places, different laws and different customs.

32

You can always do what I did - casually mentioned a new job offer to the least discrete engineer in the office (heart of gold, really good mate, couldn’t keep a secret). I had a pay rise and promotion before I had to commit to the new one.

Great way to do it.

Si

33

[QUOTE=si_blakely]
You can always do what I did - casually mentioned a new job offer to the least discrete engineer in the office (heart of gold, really good mate, couldn’t keep a secret). I had a pay rise and promotion before I had to commit to the new one.
[/QUOTE]

As an employer, I could not disagree more.

Horses for courses.

34

I feel I’m living in Crazytown. “Heartbreaking process”?

Even the managers have done the laid off/rehired/other-offer/counter-offer dance.

They’re not going to judge you for sending your resume out and getting an offer. They do it too! Just tell your manager you got an offer for x dollars. They’ll either match it or not. So simple

35

[QUOTE=abby]
As an employer, I could not disagree more.

Horses for courses.
[/QUOTE]
If I had approached my employer with a firm offer from another firm, the “never negotiate” clause kicks in, my boss loses a valuable resource and I change my life (I would have had to move).

If my boss gets wind of a serious possibility I may leave, he gets to act before that situation arises - he made an offer (I’ve reviewed your performance…), set some new goals, and I get to demonstrate gratitude and loyalty and stay. It was a win-win. It certainly didn’t make me think “I wonder what else I can get if I try in six months time.”

He didn’t have to make the offer. I could have moved anyway if the new role was good enough. But it didn’t end up with the head-to-head deadlock that so often occurs in that situation. My boss had to evaluate my value to his business, and the impact of my loss. He decided the new offer was worth it. I agreed to it. Of course, the situation would not arise at all if the company did not have a corporate annual review process that tried to minimise pay rises and promotion, and a published “no negotiation” policy to dissuade leveraging job offers.

That said, using an unreliable third party (like I did) is not really the best approach (it only worked because it was a very small office). I actually think that independent reviewers (who regularly talks to all parties but has no stake in the outcome) are a better buffer between an employee and the person who decides on pay rises/promotion.

Si

36

I guess it’s different for every industry and level. Don’t burn your bridges. for a professional job, 1 month notice is very standard although often take accrued vacation and it’s pretty short. It’s a small world the higher up the ladder or specialty you go, and blowing out of a job with zero or little notice is simply not professional where I come from. And I have been whacked with zero notice.

I’ve also been a hourly grunt and felt the great pleasure of telling a boss “we’ll see you when the read flag flies and you better not fuck with my last check.”

Just remember, you certainly don’t want a rep of leaving the wrong way no matter how justified. Be a pro according to the “rules” of the level you’re at.

there are many industies like sales, stock broking, etc where wages can lag significantly. Just be upfront “I want to stay but it’s 25% more, what do you think I should do?”

As an employeer, some of the best words one can hear is “I got a better offer” and it’s a chance to a) get rid of a loser b) see someone you mentor spread their wings and get a good shot c) hate to lose them but it’s beyond the budget and very occaisionally d) make a counter offer.

37

[QUOTE=Voyager]
In California, and I think in most of the US, there are no contracts, only employment at will. .
[/QUOTE]

Oh no, there are contracts, I have signed them. One even went so far to specify that if they did “fire me at will” I would recieve one months pay as severance.

38

[QUOTE=DrDeth]
Oh no, there are contracts, I have signed them. One even went so far to specify that if they did “fire me at will” I would recieve one months pay as severance.
[/QUOTE]

I’ve spoken to engineers from Europe who work on specific multiyear contracts. They basically can’t be fired during the contract (this was over 10 years ago, so the laws may have changed) but have no expectation of being rehired at the end.

39

[QUOTE=si_blakely]
If I had approached my employer with a firm offer from another firm, the “never negotiate” clause kicks in, my boss loses a valuable resource and I change my life (I would have had to move).

If my boss gets wind of a serious possibility I may leave, he gets to act before that situation arises - he made an offer (I’ve reviewed your performance…), set some new goals, and I get to demonstrate gratitude and loyalty and stay. It was a win-win. It certainly didn’t make me think “I wonder what else I can get if I try in six months time.”

[/QUOTE]

I’ve seen this kind of thing happen. Someone with a good rating, well respected, said, unofficially, that he was frustrated not being promoted. Though there was some grumbling, the management team decided it was better to promote him than lose him.

Retention clearly matters in salary decisions. Someone who is good and is likely to move if not motivated will do better than someone who is inwardly focused. In all these cases you have to be as good as you think you are. There have also been cases where the reaction of the management team has been to offer help preparing a resume. :slight_smile: Not quite, but there have been some cases like in an old Sam Levenson record.

Children: We’re not going to the beach? We’re leaving home!

Mother: <Yiddish for go with God.> I’ll pack you sandwiches.

40

I agree 100% with the Get It In Writing crowd. I’ve known too many people who didn’t get the contract in writing and ended up with nothing. And once you do, most contracts contain a timeframe in which the offer is valid. I’ve had some that were a couple of days and others that gave a week.

Be careful about the timing. It’s highly recommended that you not sign on with the new company, then back out on them because your current place bumped your pay. If you are going to give it a try, do it before accepting the new gig.

Did you go through a whole interview process on this new job? If so, why would you go through that trouble (as someone else pointed out) just to stay where you are? Change can be a Really Good Thing sometimes!

Either way, Good luck!