I didn’t mean physical violence, but I used to see articles written by one Rabbi lombasting another Rabbi in terms that you wouldn’t think a holy man would use, calling question to his knowledge, education or intentions.
My “mind of God” comment was snarky – I’m well aware that it’s man’s interpretation of what God thinks, but to some, if a “man of God” makes the interpretation, that’s the official word just like a burning bush or a booming bombast.
Well, you can get a Shabbat goy to do it for you. But even that has restrictions. You can’t pay him to do it. You can’t even ask him to do it. He has to volunteer his services and it’s probably not wise to take advantage of such an offer.
So the crazy anti-flushing guy? The only way he wasn’t breaking the Sabbath was if he lucked into the having as a roommate the one single guy in the known universe who would raise his hand and say “You can’t flush? Dude, I’ll totally watch your shit flow away. R0xx0r!”
In a word, because you’re not eating the toilet paper. As GilaB and cmkeller were at pains to distinguish, there are different rules for doing household work (even tearing off toilet paper) and preparing food. And I presume this has to do with the idea of the Sabbath as the day to rest from labor and rejoice, including giving thanks and praise to God. (Not saying that’s a part of how YOU rejoice; just that it fits the Jewish concept.) To do a parallel, having to work on a holiday is disliked; being able to eat a big meal, not so much. Yet you may put as much effort into a holiday dinner as you might into a normal day’s work – but it isn’t “work” in your mind. Same principle; different application.
Yeah, that was why I included the “probably”. I was just guessing that not many Catholics live within the bounds of an eruv, and so was presuming that there was not one in this case.
Gee, I leave the board for a little while and I miss all the interesting questions. 
Zev Steinhardt
This might be outside the scope of this thread, but does god care about these things specifically or is it following arbitrary rules to be disciplined kind of thing?
This type of thing continually leads me to believe that religion only serves to see how ingenious humans can be at getting around the rules they set up.
Can’t tear toilet paper, so I’ll tear it the day before. In the end, though, I still accomplish what I need to do. Can’t use the oven, so I will use this one that I can set a day before to cook. I don’t know, if you are going to develop all these work arounds, aren’t you defeating the purpose (or spirit) of the original prohibition?
Jews follow the laws because we are commanded to do so. We can (and endlessly do) discuss the deeper meaning, but the laws are followed because that is what Jews are commanded to do.
I don’t know what the problem here is. There is no prohibition on wiping oneself, merely on tearing paper. So we tear it the day before. What’s the problem?
Actually, you can’t stick raw food in your oven and set it to start cooking on Shabbos. The act of cooking on Shabbos is forbidden, even if you set it up beforehand.
Zev Steinhardt
But who decides what Jews are commanded to do? The rabbis can’t even agree on an interpretation. Isn’t it possible that a religious law against tearing toilet paper on a certain day has no meaning other than what adherents decide to attribute to it?
So what happens if you forget? Do you not wipe your ass? Do you wipe and then throw the entire roll away? If the garbage is full can you manipulate it to make it fit?
Did the guy think he was at least allowed to put the seat down after he was done, so as to not show off his latest “art?”
ETA: Even the perforated toilet paper tearing is taboo? It seems like you could just pull on it, and if it comes apart then it’s God’s will for you to have something with which to wipe. If not, you’re SOL (pun intended).
Oh, and wasn’t there some thread here awhile back about some guy in a hasidic neighborhood doing something for a woman who seemed distressed?
That ignores the point of the question. Are you commanded to do that because not tearing the paper is important, or just to show that following directions is important?
I understand follow the orders of god. I’m asking if tearing TP is arbitrary or not. Could it just as easily have been something else that’s forbidden?
Sorry, no cite, but I’ve heard that Muslim prohibitions against the collection of interest leads to absurd financial shenanigans, all designed to create interest-like profits while technically complying with God’s law. It’s a similar idea.
Can you fold up a piece of paper and fan yourself with it?
Good question. Let’s break it up into two parts.
First, we do believe that God does care about these things. If He didn’t, then He wouldn’t bother to tell us about them.
The second part is a lot more complicated. Namely: Why did He choose these things, and not other things? For example, why did He say Jews can eat beef but not pork, instead of the other way around? Does He have a particular reason, or reasons, - or was He just being arbitrary?
Jewish rabbis and philosophers have wrestled with this for thousands of years. Some of His commands have pretty obvious ethical reasons - like not killing or stealing. But others are a lot tougher. In many cases, the rabbis just give up and say, “I don’t know. I’m sure it makes sense to Him, but we can’t figure it out.” In some cases, some rabbis go even further, and conjecture that perhaps He was indeed being arbitrary, and gave us certain rules for no reason other than to train us to have some self-control and learn how to follow directions.
But all the rabbis agree that we can never be sure about any of this. If someone finds some value in one (or several) of the things He told us, that’s fine, but the bottom line is this: We follow these laws because He told us to.
I’m not particularly observant, so take what I say with a grain of (kosher) salt. But it is exactly the point. The Torah says not to do work on the Sabbath. That is why we don’t do work on the Sabbath. Trying to explain if it is the act, or the following of directions is irrelevant. Jews follow the commandments because G-d said to do so. While it is interesting to discuss “Why” it has no bearing on whether you carry out the commandments.
Now, determining the definition of work is an exercise left up to the reader. It’s complex because the commandment to not perform work is not open to question. In many cases the rabbis have concluded that its better to be safe then sorry, which is why you get some convoluted rules. And since there’s room for interpretation and the Torah is not precise in many places we ended up with a whole book of rabbinic writings and commentaries. It’s up to the individual Jew to decide which is right and which is not. There’s no central authority in Judaism so you’re never going to get the authoritative answer you are looking for.
An analogy might be how can you follow the Roman Catholic church’s teachings on eating meat on Friday when the Baptists have no prohibition on it? Which is correct and why? You’ll never get a definitive answer because there isn’t one.
My philosophy is that if a workaround seems to defeat the spirit of the law, then I’m making at least one of two possible errors:
One - My workaround might be faulty. Maybe it actually violates the letter of the law too.
Two - My understanding of the spirit of the law might be faulty. If this workaround is technically allowed, and God could have designed to law to forbid it, then there must be a reason why He included that loophole.
In most cases, people tend to mess up on #2. And this is a great example of it. You suggest that there is something inherently wrong with tearing toilet paper, and that’s why you don’t understand what gets accomplished by tearing it the day before. Actually, there’s nothing wrong with tearing toilet paper in general. But there is something wrong with tearing toilet paper on the Sabbath.
Okay, now you want to improve your understanding of the spirit of the law. Great. One way of understanding it is that on the Sabbath we refrain from certain creative acts. Among these is cutting or tearing an object to be a specific size or shape. That is precisely what happens when we take a roll of paper hundreds of feet long, and tear off a useful piece. This is the sort of creative activity that God refrained from on the seventh day of Creation. Rather, He got everything done during the first six days. And that’s what we do too, trying real hard to get everything – including the toilet paper – done by late Friday afternoon.
(Exactly which creative activities are banned and which are allowed is for another post.)
They’re all pretty much equally stupid. No religion’s any more rational than another, if that’s what you’re getting at.
So what if you are extremely observent and yet find yourself having to do one of the things mentioned here, like tearing toilet paper? How are you absolved of this transgression?
(And I apologize in advance if I’m phrasing any of that wrong. I know absolutely nothing of Judaism.)
First of all, almost all of the laws are waived if necessary to save a human life or soul. So if you have to do one of these things because someone will die if you don’t, then you’re in the clear.
And for minor transgressions, one of the Jewish high holy days, Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement) is set aside for gaining forgiveness from God. In the old days, it involved a literal scapegoat, who was sent off into the wilderness bearing away the community’s sins, but that part isn’t much done any more.