Using the toilet on Shabbat

Factual Questions
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It’s certainly true that there is no central authority in Judaism at this particular point in history. But it is equally true that such an authority did exist in the past – Moses himself was such an authority, and his successors continued it for many generations.

On the one hand we have free will to interpret the Torah however we want. But on the other hand, not all interpretations are equally valid. It seems prudent to see what the classics say about new ideas that we might come up with.

For example, the word “work” is not the only source for deciding what to forbid on the Sabbath. Consider, please, the beginning of Chapter 35 of the book of Exodus. Keep in mind that from here to the end of that book is devoted exclusively to the instructions of how to build the Tabernacle – the mini-Temple – of the Israelites in the desert.

The rabbis of the Talmud ask (rhetorically) why this concept is used to introduce the directions for building the Tabernacle. Their answer is that we must continue our work on the Tabernacle for all six days of the week, but to stop all that work on the Sabbath. In other words, if an act must be done for the building of the Tabernacle, then it is an act which must not be done on the Sabbath.

The rabbis’ next step was to catalog and categorize all those activities, so that we’ll know which ones to avoid. And because the wood of the beams needed to be cut to specific sizes and shapes, and the leather of the wall coverings had to be cut to specific sizes and shapes, one of those categories became known as “cutting to a specific size or shape”. which is why I don’t tear my toilet paper on the Sabbath.

(And, as my aunt remarked when I explained this to her: “And because they needed curtains, that’s why I can’t do my sewing!”)

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  1. Hi, Zev.

  2. Maybe someone would post a page of the Talmud in English translation so people can see how much argument (in the legal sense) goes into the decisions about how the commandments are to be enacted?

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I was reading the Wikipedia entry on this (which I realize may not be the ultimate authority, but it was just to get an idea), but like you say, Keeve, apparently this can all be traced back to certain rules and it’s just an extension. Like the example you give about wood beams=I can’t tear toilet paper. It’s almost as if they are trying to find ways to tie it in to the building of a tabernacle.

However, when I was questioning it earlier, I was saying you still get what you need. You need torn toilet paper on a certain day, tear it a day earlier. Regardless of whether you are prohibited from wiping yourself or not, you still have torn sheets of toilet paper available when you need it. Isn’t it theoretically possible that one could say that because they had to paint the temple, that you shouldn’t move your arm in a wiping motion? If you are prohibited from driving a car or flipping a light switch because the spark is akin to lighting a fire, couldn’t you pretty much tie anything you wanted to these rules?

Just wondering.

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Like Chronos said, if a life is at stake, that overrides all the Sabbath laws. So it isn’t even a transgression that one would need to be absolved from.

Problem is, if I’m stuck on the toilet with no pre-cut toilet paper, no one is going to die. They might want to when the smell me, but that’s not really enough to override God’s law.

But in many situations, including this one, smelling like a decent human being is enough to override the laws of the rabbis. (No, that’s not exactly right. Let me phrase it a little better: ) When the rabbis made their rules, the always included a few clauses that limited their applicability to normal situations, and never intended them to apply in extraordinary situations. These laws don’t apply to people who are ill (even if not deathly ill), and other cases too.

What rabbi laws am I talking about?

In my previous post, and some other posts also, we’ve shown that the problem with toilet paper not the act of using it, nor the act of folding it, but only the act of tearing it from the roll to a specific size or shape. If one tears it in an unusually sloppy manner, this is not forbidden by the Torah on the Sabbath. What I’ve done on occasion is to put one part of the paper on my right leg and hold it in place with my right arm, and have another part of the paper held by my left leg and left arm, and then I snap the paper in two by moving my legs. The result is that I’ve torn the paper but not in a specific place. (It usually does tear along one of several perforated lines; other people have developed other procedures so that it doesn’t even tear on the perfs, but I haven’t gotten the knack of that yet.)

Using a procedure such as I’ve described avoids any technical violation of the law. But if one relies on it, he will eventually forget, and accidentally tear in the usual way. Therefore, the rabbis of several thousands of years ago (way before toilet paper was invented) made a general rule against tearing things even in a sloppy manner, to prevent someone from accidentally making a nice tear. But, like their other rules, this was intended only for normal situations, not for someone whose only alternative would be to walk around with a smelly rear end for the rest of the day.

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And right here this all makes far more sense than xtn scientists.

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I have a question and I’m not sure what it is so I’ll give it a shot.

If each rabbi has a unique interpretation of the Torah regarding ‘work’ and his parishners(?!?!I’m sorry I don’t know the word for a Jewish person in this context) follows that person’s orders, does the Torah or any other teaching discuss what happens to those people if the rabbi has gotten it wrong?

If a group of Jews have been doing what they believe is the correct thing, but it turns out (when they die, I suppose) that it was something else entirely that god wanted them to do, is there any discussion anywhere about if they’ll get a pass for screwing up because they tried their best? Or are Jews with a goofball rabbi pretty well SOL?

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Yes, you are correct. I like your example of the painting and moving one’s arm. It’s all a function of how far these ideas can be stretched. And in what directions. And how the different ways are linked.

For example, I have here a book titled “Halachos of Shabbos” by Rabbi Shimon Eider. (You can Google it for a zillion places to buy it online.) It was originally going to be many volumes, but he only published the first two 200-page volumes. Here are some concepts which appear on pages 7 and 8, to determine if an act is forbidden by the Torah or not:[ul]
[li]Similar in action and purpose[/li][li]Similar in action but not purpose[/li][li]Similar in both but done to a different type of object[/li][li]Done with a different sort of tool[/li][li]Similar but only in result[/li][/ul]
Here are some more concepts. They are introduced on pages 19-20, and explained more fully on 21-40.[ul]
[li]Done in the normal manner, in the normal way[/li][li]Done for a constructive purpose, not destructive[/li][li]Done for the usual purpose[/li][li]Done deliberately, not accidentally[/li][li]Permanent result, meant to last for a long time[/li][li]Done directly, not indirectly[/li][/ul]
And that’s a big part of why these rules are so complcated. Some things are more closely related and therefore forbidden (like turning a car key which makes a fire in the engine) and others are far apart and allowed (like moving one’s arm in the same manner which would constitute painting IF that arm had a paintbrush in it).

Let’s remember that to the people who care deeply about these things, we’re not talking about cultural traditions that one can take what they like and leave the rest. Rather, to such people it is a legal system, with all the complexitiy that a legal system is expected to have. To compare it to another legal system: For most people, it is pretty clear what “income” is taxable and what’s not; but for some people, there are whole books and court cases on the topic.

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Thank you Chronos and Keeve. I hope you all don’t consider it to be an insult when I say that this is incredibly fascinating. I’ll continue to follow this thread with interest.

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Jews would tend to use “followers” or “congregants” rather than parishoners. Maybe there are some other words too. Thanks for asking. Questions are good.

Not every rabbi has his own unique interpretation. Most rabbis tend to follow the views of whoever it was that taught them, but they’re also open to new ideas that they read or come up with on their own. Most questions have a rather limited number of answers. But that doesn’t really change your main question, which is a very valid one.

Namely, what if I’m wrong?

This is such a good question that an entire volume of the Talmud (“Horiyos”) is devoted to it. The Torah itself (Leviticus 4:13) even mentions the possibility that the Sanhedrin (the Jewish Supreme Court) might issue a ruling and later discover that it was mistaken.

This possiblity is a motivation for many people trying to follow the stricter views, figuring that it is a safer bet. That sometimes boomerangs when two issues conflict and being strict on one means being lenient on the other.

I’m confident that God takes our good intentions into account, but I don’t know to what extent. Forgiving honest mistakes is one thing, but making up for the undone good is another level up. I figure that this is a good reason to make sure that I’m putting in a good-faith effort at searching for the Truth myself, and not just rely on what I’m taught. I hope He agrees.

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Why would an automatic flush toilet be a problem?

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Are you allowed to knit, or sew or anything of that kind on the Sabbath? (Just thinking about making things/changing the nature of things.)

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Oh, I agree: There’s something I admire in a system of rules so fully developed that they can handle even the arcane situations Dopers come up with. That’s the only reason I follow these threads-- I’m not Jewish myself.

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Motion-detection sensors flush the toilet automatically after you leave. It is easy to argue that this is only an indirect operation of the electrical device, but since the result is beneficial, most consider it forbidden since you know for sure that it is going to happen. (If you don’t know for sure, that might be a good loophole, but it will work only once at the most.)

And operating electric switches is a no-no, because it is considered the same as igniting a fire.

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No, no, and no. Good job!

I was looking at two of my favorite Jewish Education For Beginners websites (www.aish.com and www.ohr.edu) looking for a list of The 39 Categories Of Work. There’s a pretty nice article here, but it doesn’t mention sewing, nor does it mention the 39 Categories.

I must admit that I wasn’t surprised to find some pretty good stuff at Wikipedia. I didn’t read the whole thing – which could change by the time you see it anyway – but it does look pretty good. Try these articles in particular: Shabbat and The 39 Activities Prohibited On Shabbat.

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You’re welcome!

No, not an insult at all. Thanks for joining!

But I gotta get to bed now. Lots to do tomorrow so that we’ll be ready for Shabbos! (I won’t be tearing any toilet paper, but I may have to buy some more tissues.)

See y’all in the morning. G’night!

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Ooh, ooh, I have a question! One of the prohibitions in the link GilaB provided specifically mentions that one may not kill mosquitoes or flies but one may kill a wasp or snake as they are deadly and you are specifically allowed to violate Shabbat in matters of life or death. But today we know that mosquitoes and flies are often disease vectors. So, is there a significant amount of rabbis who have a different opinion on this matter or would they pretty much expect Jews in insect-borne-illness-prone areas to go real heavy on the DEET?

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I have a question. On this site it list the following prohibited activities…

But they’re contradictory… you can’t use electrical appliances, but you also can’t turn them off. So you can’t turn the lights on, but you can’t turn them off either?

What about heat or air conditioning? What if it’s the dead of winter, are you just supposed to be cold?

Can you leave your refrigerator plugged in? What if you open your refrigerator and the light goes on?

Can you bathe on the sabbath? If so, do you have to use cold water since hot water would require the use of the hot water heater?

I also noticed tying is on the list… how do you tie your shoes? Does fastening your clothes count (zippers, buttons, belts, etc?) Can men wear ties? What about women or girls pulling their hair back with an elastic band?

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You can’t turn on an appliance, which is necessary to use many of them. But if it’s already on at the start of the Sabbath, you can (and must) leave it on.

I don’t know whether this is the official answer, but the prohibition is against “tying two pieces of string together”. Technically, a shoelace is a single piece of string, already connected, so it might be acceptable. Another possibility would be special Sabbath garments designed to not need any sort of tying. At a guess, I’d say that tying one’s shoelace would go against a rabbinical prohibition, one of those rules to keep you from getting into the wrong habits, but would be acceptable if necessary.

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Could you turn down an appliance without turning it off? E.g. adjust the volume on a stereo, use a dimmer switch on a light, etc… In other words, not start (or stop) the electrical device, but adjust it’s performance?

As I understand it, the prohibition against using electrical devices derives from the prohibition against lighting a fire - would it have been permissable to feed a fire that was already lit when the Sabbath started? (Which would be the pre-tech equivalent to the above…)

Grim

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This is a great example of a point I try to stress to my children, namely, making a distinction between a law itself, vs. a mere example of a law.

In this case, it is an error to say that the law prohibits killing mosquitos and flies. Rather, the law prohibits killing non-deadly insects, and these are examples of non-deadly insects in the places we live. Elsewhere they’d be examples of insects which are deadly. The distinction is made by what is generally accepted among the populace. If someone was strongly allergic to mosquitos, then I’d kill them anywhere that person might be near, but not elsewhere.