That’s what I was getting at above (post #43). [rhetorical question]Why don’t we have guy, or dude, to refer to a woman?[/rhetorical question]
Well, we do, but it rubs some chicks the wrong way.
Applied linguistics–particularly for the purposes of language instruction, but also for things like language automation.
In other words, we don’t, because the humor of your response derives from the fact the chick is clearly marked–to the point that you didn’t feel it necessary to insert a smilie face.
Admittedly so. My point is that they flat-out declared that it was not at all offensive – a view that some others in this thread have also voiced, despite being privy to the words of those who do take offense. One of them in particular tends to be hypersensitive to matters of alleged sexism, so I think she’d be especially prone to take offense to such terms. (And I say that while acknowledging the other points that you raised.0
Y’know, I’m glad that you phrased things this way. I’m glad that you state your case firmly, while at the same time acknowledging that you don’t know for sure what was going on in their minds. Not everyone on the SDMB has that kind of humility, especially when it comes to contentious ‘touchy-feely’ issues.
I’ll grant your point that maybe they would have changed their position if forced to analyze it more introspectively. Maybe. That’s precisely why I consider issues like this to be ambiguous, and why I usually don’t get worked up over perceived offenses with regard to word usage. As a very general rule of thumb, if the speaker doesn’t seem to be deliberately offensive or outright insensitive, I seldom let these supposed slurs bother me.
I think it cuts both ways, BTW. I wonder if the people who state that this term was utterly dehumanizing would feel the same way if it was used in a different, though still non-clinical, context – if spoken by a woman to describe her friends, for example.
It’s hard to say from here.
But remember: When someone asserts that something just said is “offensive,” that means that they are at that very moment negotiating for its offensiveness as the conversation unfolds, by the fact that they are making the assertion in the first place. If something is already patently offensive, there’s no need to assert that it is so.
As I was telling a friend just last night, I tend to use that guideline when it comes to human interactions in general – whether spoken or not. it’s just a rule of thumb, and I’m sure that I can come up with various situations wherein I don’t abide by that rule. As a general principle though, it’s how I prefer to operate.
I’m female and I’ve used “female” and “male” as shorthand for “person who happens to be exhibiting the stereotypical behaviors of a particular sex, which occasionally everyone does in that stopped clock sort of way, but is not intended to be anything but a comment on a specific current behavior and not a predictor of generalized traits”.
I think I started saying it thinking of the Louie Prima song Jump, Jive & Wail: “A woman is a woman but a man ain’t nothing but a male.”
No, I wouldn’t feel quite the same level of suspicion (or distaste or what-have-you), but I’d think a woman saying “I met some females today…” was still indicating that she was distancing herself psychologically from the women she was talking about (unless she was a cop, doctor, soldier, etc.). And I can’t imagine a woman speaking that phrase without a significant pause, like, “I met some…females today”, as if she were groping around for a more delicate word for, I don’t know, “skanks.”
I can’t remember the last time I heard a civilian woman use the word “females” to refer to human women, actually. As I said before, in my experience the people who tend to use that term tend to be cops or sad-sack men.
90% of the time I hear the spoken word “female” used, it’s derogatory.
(confirmation bias, yadayadayada…)
This thread is a great example of why I love the Dope. Topics like this can be intelligently discussed, and with respect for differing opinions.
I would like to reiterate that while this bothers me to some degree, I wouldn’t characterize it as offensive. I hope when JThunder referred to some of us finding it “outrightly offensive and dehumanizing” he wasn’t thinking that’s my feeling on the matter.
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I don’t know, “woman” sounds perfectly normal in that sentence. “Female” makes me think you’re talking about a dog.
Schwing! Oh, wait…nevermind.
The only other people besides cops I ever hear using “female” as a noun are the litigants on daytime court shows. Not sure if they’re trying to sound intelligent or they’ve spent so much time in police custody that it’s rubbed off. I wouldn’t say it’s offensive but it does sound ignorant.
I think the term girl for any adult woman is offensive. Female doesn’t bother me and I prefer it to girl. Most women would be offended by the term girl is weren’t so caught up in age and looking younger than we really are.
I think any “general” term for is offensive. Call a by name or don’t speak of at all.
Yeah, what’s the equivalent of “guy” for a girl? It’s terrible!
Yeah, I met this girl yesterday (wow what a sleazeball, dude)
Yeah, I met this woman yesterday (she must be a ball breaker)
Yeah, I met this lady yesterday (did she give you a dressing-down, too?)
Yeah, I met this chick (bow chika bow wow)
Yeah, I met this gal yesterday (… hi gramps)
Yeah, I met this broad/bitch/tart/bird (SLAP)
… you just can’t win.
I hate “female” in the context being described in this thread. If a prospective dating partner were to start telling me about the females in his past, there would be a 99% probability that he would get the brush off after our conversation.
I don’t get why “woman” seems to be so awkward for a lot of people. A while ago, I starting culling “girl” from my speech (unless I’m talking to a friend), and using “woman” in place of it, and it’s really not that hard.
But there are times that “woman” doesn’t quite fit. I find that “lady” works pretty well when “woman” sounds too serious and adult.
“Who took the last watermelon?”
“The lady over there.”
Er, the word “female” is a noun (as is “male”). Yes, it can be used in a disrespectful or demeaning way, as in the OP’s example, but so can lots of words. It also has perfectly legitimate uses. It is all down to context. (And if people intend to be disrespectful towards others, they will find ways to express it, whatever words they may use.)
I think it is awkward that one half of humanity is always referred to by terms that emphasize their age. As though their age is universally important in any context, so no age-neutral term is needed.
“Women” works perfectly as a counterpart to “men” and is often used as such without awkwardness.
It does not work at all as a counterpart to “guys”.
“He’s just some guy I dated in high school”
“She’s just some woman I dated in high school” (wait, you dated a woman in high school?)
“We’re having a guys’ night out”
“We’re having a womens’ night out” (sorry girls, we were going to let you come along, but you’re not one of us yet. Let us know when you transform.)
It is unfortunate that the most widely used and understood female equivalent to “guys” is “girls”, which obviously has another definition which is strongly age-based.
But unless you are more comfortable calling a 10 year old a woman than you are including a 28 year old in a “girl’s night out”, it makes a lot more sense for “girls” to perform double duty than for “women” to do so.