Good looks can take a little more effort than being born white. Some people can diet, exercise, wear makeup and wear the right clothes better than other people can. Good looks still depend largely on luck. Well, I suppose there is plastic surgery, so they can depend on money too. Still some people are born looking so bad that no amount of makeup or money will save them. Some people are born with genes that don’t allow them to loose weight like other people.
I still don’t see any reason why good looks would entitle you to more shrimp or any other advantage over bad looking people. Did you do something better than them except be born different. Should I get more shrimp for being born white? How does exploiting an advantage you gained from birth seem fair?
You can claim that life is not fair and that other people do this so you should be able to do this also. This would still mean that using good looks to your advantage is unfair, only now you don’t care. Whether you should be fair or not is a different argument, but can we at least agree that using good looks to your advantage is unfair?
I’ve never intentionally tried to get anything special by dressing like a slut. Seriously, I’d have to go shopping for the occasion, I usually dress very modestly.
But I have gotten stuff unintentionally. Like the grocery checker who rang up my fancy oranges with the price of ordinary oranges. That sort of thing. (And yes, I mentioned that they were fancy oranges and he smiled and said “No, they’re not”.)
No, because the person doling out the favors to the good looking person isn’t having a gun put up to his or her head.
Unless you mean the person giving the favors is being unfair. Is that what you meant?
Even still, we could split hairs and say for example in bump’s post. You could argue that Bump made nerdy-girl’s day by giving a wink, which in turn he got something extra for his “services.” (heh,heh)
My own answer: I live in a world where appearance is treated as shorthand for in-depth understanding. I chose my appearance, at least in part, to convey in shorthand a stereotypical representation of a person that comes decently close to home. In short, I look like a leftover hippie, and/or artsy/creative and/or rebellious-intellectual deliberate-misfit, and it’s all deliberate and chosen.
Well, OK, the other part is that it fits with me…I like what I see in the mirror, it’s expressive of me personally…I like the long hair, the flounciness of it, the regal elegance of it when I’ve got every stand in place, the wild unkemptness of it when I don’t, the luxurious feel of it along the back of my neck, the fun of tossing it when I move my head. And I like the beard and mustache, whether grown out long and undulating in waves like the Hasidim or shorn close the way the younger guys do it, just a bit more than a 5 o’clock shadow and scruffy…and I imagine it all white in my old age, long and formidable like the Ayatollah Khomeini, heh heh…
On a level I’m very much aware of, it’s communication and I’m using it always to broadcast who I am and/or how I want to be thought of initially.
No, we can’t agree that using good looks to one’s advantage is unfair.
What’s your point? Lets assume that a tall, good-looking guy is going to get more dates than someone who is not so fortunate. Do you think that in the interest of fairness the tall, good-looking guy should cut his feet off, or simply decline to ask girls on dates since he has an advantage?
Most people are smart enough to use what advantages they’ve been given. Good looks is only one of many. Everybody uses what advantages they’ve got and tries to minimize their shortcomings. It’s not a question of fairness, it’s simply the way life is.
I’m pretty sure the only reason I got a final grade of ‘B’ in Biology I was because of all those tight tank tops I liked to wear back in college. Not that I wasn’t studying, but I was a solid ‘C-’ student in that class.
Yes, I’ve definitely used my looks to my advantage in getting a job. Two jobs, in fact.
First up, it should be noted that I’m a tall (6’) and *very * heavy (290lbs/135kg) girl , who wears no makeup and tends towards slacks and casual shirts instead of business suits (though I do have one pants suit).
I got one fantastic assignment working as the personal assistant to a guy who, I’m positive, hired me because it kept his wife off his back - she hated his first secretary, who was petite, slim, and lovely. Since she (his wife) worked in the office with him one day a week, I think he decided it was just easier to take on an assistant who wasn’t going to cause her any jealousy. (She was an averagely attractive lady married to a strikingly attractive guy. He absolutely adored her, but I think she suffered from poor self-image. If she could have heard him talk about her and his kids, she’d have realized he wasn’t the cheating type. Family man all the way.)
The second job I got based on my looks was because of an interview I had with one of the Managers - I was asked how I’d personally rate my skills in the area. With a grin I replied “Well, it’s fairly clear I’m not getting by on my looks!”. She gaped in astonishment, then cracked up laughing.
I hadn’t even left the carpark before I got a call on my mobile saying I had the job.
I went to a college where the average student is Mensa level (according to one TA who was in Mensa). Students who fail to pass the first grade move on to other colleges nearby and proceed to get such things as all-A+.
There were two girls in my class who spent a lot of time making butterfly eyes at the TAs. On most occasions it had no effect other than the TA saying something along the lines of “you know rimmel isn’t allowed in the lab, do you?”; once that it was working, the students nearby (male and female) caught the eye of the other male TA, pointed him to Ms Butterfly, and he smirked, grabbed Mr Starstruck by the elbow and took him outside for a minute. Mr Starstruck came back looking beetlejuice-red and Mr Sorrybabeitdoesn’twork went to Ms Butterfly and asked whether she thought she might be able to continue her work on her own. She batted her lashes once, saw that the only response she would get was a grin toothy enough to make a shark balk and twittered “oh, oh, I thing I may be able to, yes…”
Who knows, maybe next time I go for a job interview I should wear my Sunbathing Top and Get Bricklayers Whistling Jeans instead of a pantsuit… naah… I already get told “but we can’t put a girl in Production!”, don’t need to add injury to insult.
High intelligence is also a genetic trait. You can try and get as much education as you possibly can, but a someone with a lower IQ will never be as quantifiably intelligent as someone with a high IQ. Should it be considered a bad thing to use your intelligence to your advantage? Is it less fair to people with lesser intelligence?
Someone who isn’t “Playboy beautiful” is still fully capable of having supremely beautiful physical qualities. Hell, I’m certainly not claiming I’m that caliber of pretty, because I know for fact I’m not. Quite literally, in fact. I was asked to do test shots for them a number of years ago and they were rejected.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and just because one person thinks I’m good looking doesn’t mean the next one will. Just because my personal charms may work on one person surely doesn’t mean I’d be so arrogant as to think they’d work on everyone.
Here’s a question. Do you, whether you are single or not, no matter what you feel you look like, what weight you are, what color you are (since you felt the need to bring race into it), dress up when you go out for a night on the town? Do you try and wear clothes that display your good parts and hide the ones you’re not so proud about? Do you wear makeup? Do your hair nice? That’s ALL using looks to your advantage.
It’s just window dressing, but everyone knows it matters at some level. You don’t have to be Cosmo cover beautiful to use looks to your advantage, all you have to do is take care with your appearance. The guy who prefers the well-groomed woman over the woman who doesn’t shower, doesn’t comb her hair, shave her legs even if wearing shorts, and honestly doesn’t give a damn about her appearance? The well-groomed woman used her looks to her advantage, imo, and the woman who doesn’t care about what she looks like or smells like didn’t. Neither one is right or wrong, just one chose to utilize what she had to her best advantage and one didn’t. Again, IMO.
I must have missed where I said looks of any sort, let alone mine, “entitled” me to diddly-squat. Would you be so kind as to point where I said that for me?
If someone in front of me in line is “less pretty”, but is in a really good mood, smiles and winks at the counter guy and gets some more shrimp, whereas I’m subjectively “more pretty”, but am in a pissy mood and being a sullen, sarcastic bitch that day and I don’t get more shrimp, should I cry “hey! unfair!!”?
No one’s “entitled” to any advantage whatsoever, but if a person is susceptible to my particular charms, be they physical or mental, and is willing to give me an advantage for it, I’d be a fool to not take it, would I not?
Would you think it as ludicrous if we were talking about natural intelligence instead of “good looks” (which again, are entirely subjective, as opposed to intelligence, which is actually rather quantifiable)?
Would you turn down a job offer because someone thought you were smarter and more able to say, multi-task than someone who maybe wasn’t as smart and couldn’t multi-task to save their lives?
Why on earth would using any advantage you’ve got be unfair?
I ask again. **Would you hesitate, even for a second, to use your intelligence to your advantage? ** Do you think using intelligence to your advantage is somehow more “honest” than using looks? Bull…looks up at forum title…hockey.
You were either born with high intelligence or you weren’t. You can do alot with a lower natural intelligence and a will to learn, but you’ll never surpass a person of higher natural intelligence who has just as aggressive a will to learn. Some people were born with smarts, some people have to work at them, and some people will never be as smart as they’d like to be.
You could argue the same with looks. Some people were born with them, some people have to work at them, and some people will never as pretty as they want.
At least “beauty” is subjective, and in the eye of the beholder, whereas intelligence isn’t so much.
I am intelligent, though not formally educated for reasons I won’t go into here, but I’ll be the first to tell you I can pretty much assure you if you compared say, Bill Gates right out of high school and me back at that same age, would you say he had an “unfair advantage” because I wasn’t as naturally intelligent as he was?
The reality is some people weren’t born with natural high intelligence. Some people didn’t have as much access to education as you may have. Some people have less self-esteem or self-confidence than you do. Just because some people aren’t as smart as you might be, or less educated than you might be, or possess less self-esteeem, or self-confidence, should you pretend it doesn’t give you an advantage in some situations?
Should you stifle your intelligence, your possession of an education, your self-esteem, your self-confidence? Should you not utilize any of the above to your advantage because it might give you an “edge” over someone who doesn’t possess those things you might?
Look, I’m not narcissistic, I don’t think I’m “all that”, and even though I’m self-confident about my looks, and might have vain days (like when I’m dressed to the nines to go out), there’s certainly quite alot of days I simply don’t give a fat damn. I just know where my physical strengths (so to speak) lie, and I play them to the hilt. Why wouldn’t I? I know where my mental and intellectual strengths lie, and I play those to the hilt too.
IMO, you’re a fool if you don’t use every resource or natural advantage you were given.
Some things I consider “personal assets”:
an engaging smile
good job interview, personal, or networking skills
natural intelligence
a good education
a personality that attracts people, not repels them
honesty
integrity
good looks (as in, taking care in your appearance, not being supermodel-pretty…though that’s arguably an asset. I wouldn’t know, as I’m not that level of pretty)
natural charm
the ability to win people over
street smarts
common sense
self-confidence (which is what I consider one the sexiest qualities a person can possibly possess, bar none, imo)
Some people have the above qualities, some do not. Why on earth would it be “unfair” for anyone to use any of the above qualities to your advantage?
Or are you trying to say that because one quality is physical instead of mental, it’s somehow a less “honest” quality to utilize?
It sounds like those girls were relying on their looks to get them by, not simply using them to their advantage, imo. That doesn’t sound like a situation looks of any sort should even remotely matter.
Of course! My body type doesn’t really fit my personality and when I was in High School and early college I tried to compensate for it by dressing in boy’s clothing and not wearing makeup. A year later I figured out that it was okay for me to be feminine, cute and sweet so I started dressing in girl’s clothing and occasionally wore makeup. The reaction of the individuals around me to me was startling between the two time periods. Before I was just another person but now all of a sudden I got a lot of attention. The attention isn’t always positive. I figure if I am going to have to deal with negative attention because of my looks, I would rather use them to my advantage.
As for a recent example, this past weekend I went to this huge outdoor concert called Coachella. It was out in the desert so a lot of girls went around in bikinis and other skimpy outfits. I was dressed in a bikini and a very short skirt. Because of my outfit and the fact that I am a short, small female, I was able to work my way far up into crowds and get nice positions. People were willing to move out of the way for me when they wouldn’t have been willing to for another individual. The attention I got wasn’t all good, someone grabbed my ass, but the next time I go I plan on dressing the same way because the benefits outweighed the drawbacks.
I used to feel bad about doing that. After all, I just got genetically lucky, but after I started supporting myself, I realized that everyone has little advantages over other people in different areas and there is nothing wrong with using them to your full potential. If I dress plainly, don’t wear make up or brush my hair, I will find it very difficult to be hired. Since I work as a waitress, it is imperitive that I have a clean, pleasant presentation.
As Bites When Provoked pointed out, everyone can use their looks to their advantage, it isn’t just the attractive people.
You got it. Life is unfair. That still does not determine if one should use natural good looks to their advantage and does not really express my point like I would want it to. I wanted to get across that doing what OP was asking is unfair.
He is asking about people using their attractive looks, which have nothing to do with personality (he did not ask if anyone used their good charms), to gain an advantage in the workplace. Am I reading this wrong?
Also, doing what Carri said she does, is unfair. That is:
All the time? I assume she is answering the OP’s question and uses good looks to gain an advantage in her workplace, where ( unless her job requires her to look good, in which case I stand corrected) good looks should not get her better treatment then people who look worst than her.
I certainly don’t believe that looks should never be used to one persons advantage. Using looks to get a job modeling or to get a date is ok. Using looks to get an advantage everywhere you go is wrong. I’ll also interact better with well groomed people because I won’t fear they have a contagious disease or something because they look cleaner. I groom myself so that others know I take good care of my body and that it is safe to approach me. Our society is not perfect and does require people to do unnecessary things to be respectable in public. I know I cannot change these social norms in my life time, so it is best that I go along with them. I wish these social norms would change, but all I can do is post about it on an internet forum.
So that is why it is ok to wear makeup and dress good, or to try to look like society wants you too. What I was talking about and what the I thought the OP was asking for was about looking better than the standard of our warped society. That is a “low cut top” or “short skirt”. This is going beyond what is expected of you and is wrong to do this to gain an advantage at lets say a law firm.
I don’t think we are using the term “good looks” to mean the same thing. You are using it to mean the standard look that society expects from you. As you also say, “good looks (as in, taking care in your appearance, not being supermodel-pretty…though that’s arguably an asset. I wouldn’t know, as I’m not that level of pretty)”. I’m thinking of “good looks” in the way the OP described, that is going beyond just looking respectable.
I would not hesitate using intelligence I was born with to gain an advantage in a field that requires intelligence. I would not use intelligence to pose for playgirl, not that they would even care.
No I guess you didn’t, but you did say:
That comes off as too excessive. “All the time” means that at one time you had to of used your good looks to get something your looks don’t entitle you to getting. I could be read this wrong, in that case maybe you should clarify. You objected to girls using their looks to get good grades, so I don’t think this is what you want to say.
I flirt with everyone because it’s just part of my nature. I’ve always been naturally flirtatious, even as a small child. Flirting is fun, I don’t expect advantages for it, but as I said, if someone is willing to give me an advantage because it, hey, so much the better.
As far as using looks at work to get ahead…well, I’m a stripper. Looks are one of the only things that matter at my particular job, and if I had a job where intelligence was actually a required factor, looks wouldn’t matter past an extent, but I’d still dress well, wear makeup, and do my hair nice.
Would it be as unacceptable if I as say, a legal secretary, wore say, very nice, well-tailored suits of nice materials that accentuated my “assets” without being slutty, wore makeup, and did my hair nice, as opposed to the other secretary who doesn’t take care of her appearance as well, and dresses in frumpy clothes that don’t fit her well?
What if the lawyer in the office decided he needs a personal assistant to accompany him places, to business functions and such? If the other dumpy secretary and I have the same abilities, and I am offered the position over her, because I look better and would present a better appearance in places I’d have to appear with the lawyer, is that unfairly using looks to my advantage? It sounds to me like you’d say yes, but I don’t think so at all.
For the record, I might wear low-cut tops occasionally (but more often than not, don’t, unless I’m going out), but my man has to practically beg me to wear a short skirt. 95% of my skirts and dresses are ankle length. I’ve personally always thought a long, flowy skirt or dress that clings to my curves (but isn’t necessarily skin tight) and goes down to my ankles far sexier than an up-to-there skirt. Even at work I wear a corset, stockings, and long robes or dresses.
I think what you don’t show is far sexier than what you do, and I can’t say as I’ve had any complaints. YMMV. =)
Lakai, I want to make sure I’m clear about what I meant. When I said playing up your natural assets for your own personal gain, that is exactly what I meant. Showing off what nature has chosen fit to grant. Short skirt with long shapely legs. Nicely tailored slacks on slim hips and nice butt. Fitted top for a nice chest or broad shoulders.
I’m not suggesting showing up at work looking like a stripper. Unless, well, that what you do… (how you doin’ Cerri!)
But knowing what your best physical assets are and accentuating them for personal gain… that’s what I was most curious about.
(how you doin’ Cerri!)