Vaccine mandates...are you for, or against, and why do you have the stance you have?

[DMC]

@Raucous84

The vaccine does not prevent infection, and the vaccinated can get and transmit C-19 as well, so shouldn’t everyone (vaxxed or unvaxxed) be required to test often? Wouldn’t a weekly or bi-weekly testing requirement be effective, since C-19 negativity is ultimately what we’re seeking?

No, the vaccinated can’t get and transmit C-19 as well. They can do so, too, but not nearly as well as the unvaccinated. With that said, I don’t actually have a problem with more widespread testing, but if we are limited in our ability to test everyone all of the time, or if we want to use “the vaccinated can forego testing” as a carrot to get more vaccinated, I’m on board with focusing on the unvaccinated. While I’m fully vaccinated, the unvaccinated are still a far greater threat to me than my peers who’ve done the right thing.

@Raucous84

If we’re vaccinated, why are we worried about the unvaccinated? What’s the real concern?

That they are far more likely to infect others than the vaccinated. Period. Also, not everyone can get vaccinated. These idiots (and yes, they deserve the name calling at this point) are greatly endangering children and the immunocompromised who have seen reduced vaccine effectiveness. More importantly, they don’t seem to give a flying fuck (until they get it, get on a ventilator, die and start a gofundme to help pay for the results of their idiocy). How about we call them evil idiots?

@Raucous84

Why is there such vitriol against the unvaccinated, many of whom are simply exercising their freedom of choice, the consequences of which they’ll have to deal with? There’s no need to be mean and nasty.

We have to deal with the consequences as they’re fucking it up for everyone. Fuck 'em. When people who need life saving surgery die because the hospital is overrun with unvaccinated assholes, we pay for it.

@Raucous84

How do we know, for certain, that the mortalities presented are truly based on C-19 alone, and are not associated with other illnesses (I’ve been told by a medical doctor that there’s an apparent medical incentive for labeling mortalities as C-19)? We are not there, and are assuming that what we’re being told is infallible.

Why in the world does it matter if CoVID wasn’t the only factor? And was this doctor named Senator Scott Jensen?. Perhaps it was Dr. Tenpenny, Wagshul, Fareed, Gold or any number of other grifters. Hey, can you still get hydroxychloroquine for your CoVID these days? If CoVID only killed people who had RA, it would still be a comorbidity. We know for a fact that for many people their death is attributed to multiple factors. This isn’t new.

@Raucous84

Is there no validity to at least be skeptical of a medical treatment that is new, and has not undergone the same rigorous research and time-tested observation as most every vaccine in the history of civilization? I think the vast majority of anti-vaxxers fall into this category. I’d assume that we who are vaxxed have made an informed decision as to what we’re putting into our bodies.

In October of 2020, you’d have had reason to be skeptical as there was indeed a push to get it out the door quicker than normal. By December, there was no compelling reason to think it was rushed. Even if you want to hide behind the “EUA vs Fully Approved”, we’ve long since passed that mark. This is also one of the most tested vaccines in the history of vaccines. We know its effectiveness and we know its side effects as well as their rate of occurrence. Nope, there is no good excuse for 99.99% of the eligible public not being vaccinated today, other than being evil, an idiot, or both (or having parents who meet those criteria).

@Raucous84

Why is it presumed that the unvaccinated population will get C-19 in the first place?

Because they keep filling up our hospitals. Did you want some cites, because I have them?

@Raucous84

Some people are naturally immune, and some have constitutions that protect them from being susceptible. Personal responsibility and an ability to keep oneself healthy have not been a part of the national conversation.

Exercising does not grant immunity against CoVID. Seriously, that’s one of the stupider things in your post. Joe Rogan is a fucking idiot. Yes, being old, obese, a smoker, or many other things increase your risk. Being none of those things doesn’t make you immune, nor does it stop you from spreading the shit to others.

@Raucous84

Where is the proof that the unvaccinated are fueling mutations, and not the vaccine itself?
I’ve read data that points either way. As with the vaccine debate overall, the opinions formed seem largely to be a factor of who one chooses to listen to/agree with.

Naw, we’ve got other threads for this one.

To be fair, we have numerous threads for all of your points, but you seem to have missed them. Perhaps a quick lap around the Quarantine Zone might be beneficial.

Edit: typos

[Northern_Piper]

@Raucous84

• If we’re vaccinated, why are we worried about the unvaccinated? What’s the real concern?

Because they’re filling up the hospitals. When the ICU beds are full of COVID patients, that means that other people can’t get medical treatment. When hospitals are overwhelmed with COVID patients because they’re mortally ill, other people with less serious conditions get turned away, even if long-term, that can have a serious effect on their own health.

For example, most cancers are best treated as soon as they’re discovered in a patient. But if the cancer patient has to wait several months for the treatment because hospitals are over-burdened with COVID patients, then the cancer has time to grow, and possibly metastasize, creating a much more serious health risk, because the unvaccinated COVID patients were taking up all the medical resources.

• Why is there such vitriol against the unvaccinated, many of whom are simply exercising their freedom of choice, the consequences of which they’ll have to deal with? There’s no need to be mean and nasty.

Because their choice does not just impact them, as set out above. The consequences can be serious health risks for other people, not just for the ones who refuse to be vaccinated.

If I can’t get treatment for skin cancer, because people chose not to get vaccinated, and are now taking up all the hospital resources, I will say all the mean and nasty things I can think of about them.

This is not like religious opinions, or political opinions, which I’ve seen it compared to. Their choice not to get vaccinated can imperil other people.

[HMS_Irruncible]

I will preface this by saying that all vaccines are good and I wish that everyone would get one. I myself am double-vaxxed plus booster. I tell everyone I know to get the vaccine, and I don’t socialize with people who don’t get vaccinated.

Devil’s advocate… if we say “yes”, we support vaccine mandates, then we’re really talking about how much government force we’ll tolerate in order to enforce a medical procedure that the government deems appropriate.

Many only seem to consider the ideal case… Kindly Uncle Joe sternly tells us to make the tiny sacrifice of getting a little jab, to end a pandemic whose harms most of us have seen firsthand. We’re confident in the research since it’s publicly available, and most of the competing companies are differing only in the details of the delivery method.

What if the shoe were on the other foot? Donald Trump and three Republican-controlled branches of government, with blatant conflicting financial conflicts of interest, pushing some medical procedure that’s objectionable and obvious bullshit? Hydroxychloroquine? Bleach? Routine uterine ultrasounds for “health monitoring” that can also help enforce anti-abortion laws? I certainly wouldn’t feel good about that. I don’t think most people would. But I fear that vaccine mandates open up that door to coercive medical procedures.

Having said that, I think we’ve landed in a fairly good place. The consequences of the mandate aren’t jail… just having a job, going to school, a few other participatory aspects of society. People can even choose weekly testing if they refuse the procedure. It’s good to stay on that side of the line. As we’re going through this process, it’s being revealed that the threats of mass resignation are mostly bullshit, hyped up by right-wing hysteria.

So, I’m pretty good with the amount of coercion we’ve ended up with. I just think we should all remain conscious of how medical coercion might play out under a different regime… maybe a resurgent Trump regime, controlling all 3 branches of government, with an axe to grind and a taste for blood… and keep things in appropriate boundaries.

[Esprise_Me]

@HMS_Irruncible

Devil’s advocate… if we say “yes”, we support vaccine mandates, then we’re really talking about how much government force we’ll tolerate in order to enforce a medical procedure that the government deems appropriate.

Right, because in the absence of a vaccine mandate under a Democratic administration, the Republican party has been stymied in their attempts to exert control over the medical decisions of private citizens.

[Czarcasm]

@Raucous84

As some posters have mentioned, the broad-brush painting and name-calling of the unvaccinated is inappropriate.

It may have been inappropriate a year ago, but now I think kicking them in the ass then stabbing them in the arm with a needle wouldn’t be totally out of the question. As to all the questions you ask, if the answers you have been provided over and over and over again aren’t to your satisfaction one may conclude that you will not be satisfied if you hear them yet again.

[Northern_Piper]

@Raucous84

There have to be some people who are highly resistant, in the same way that exposure to a flu or cold does not guarantee illness? To say that no one could be is too monolithic a statement.

Even if that is true, what’s the magic symbol that allows anyone to say that they have this special immunity? Because they feel healthy? Anyone might feel healthy, until they get it.

Healthy children have died from COVID.

Healthy teenagers have died from COVID.

Healthy young adults in their 20s have died from COVID.

Until there is any scientific evidence to support your suggestion, and a test to identify these people with this special immunity, we have to go on the basis that anyone could get the disease, and therefore as many as possible should get vaccinated, even if they feel healthy.

[DMC]

@Raucous84

I never said exercising caused immunity.

@Raucous84

Personal responsibility and an ability to keep oneself healthy have not been a part of the national conversation.

Then parse that statement above for me, please. Extraordinarily fit people have indeed been crippled by this disease, so forgoing the vaccine because you are young and work out isn’t the answer. Again, even if it was, they can still transmit it to those who can’t or don’t work out. Have I mentioned that those who are not getting vaccinated are evil idiot assholes? They are.

@Raucous84

I was questioning something different entirely. There have to be some people who are highly resistant, in the same way that exposure to a flu or cold does not guarantee illness? To say that no one could be is too monolithic a statement.

There is such a group. It is comprised of those who have gotten CoVID and subsequently gotten vaccinated. They are pretty unlikely to get seriously sick at this point. You’ll notice that vaccination is part of that trip towards super-immunity. Also, if you pay close attention, you’ll see that it appears that getting the third dose or booster shot might put the naive vaccinated at a similar level of immunity. I’ll make a deal with you. If you are okay with mandating that the unvaccinated get their vaccines once they’ve had it, I’ll happily mandate that they first all spend time together partying like rock stars until they come down with it. I’ll even okay giving them a hospital for every 10 million of them, but they are limited to taking up beds in those hospitals and being taken care of by anti-vax nurses and doctors. I’ll also promise to only call them selfish assholes under my breath from a vast distance.

You down?

[Voyager]

removed troll quoted WE?

Can you identify these people in advance? Can you distinguish between those who won’t get it at all and those with mild cases but who can still spread it, and thus sicken or kill others?
Trump didn’t think he had the virus before he got it, remember.
That’s the reason for wearing masks even if you don’t think you are sick.
BTW asking questions is not stupid. Refusing to listen to good answers because they contradict one’s preconceived ideas, that’s stupid. I’ve listened to plenty of Flat Earth videos to know this for a fact.

[DMC]

I’m not hosting anything as I want these idiots far away from me. I’m fine with giving them Florida (sorry sane Floridians, but we’ll hole you up somewhere nice for a few months).

[DMC]

@Raucous84

They haven’t dealt with the most dangerous aspects of the virus, and hence, they occupy the mentality of “because it hasn’t happened to me, it must not be”.

And the Herman Cain Awards are full of those people (well, they will be again tomorrow, today is shit-post Sunday). They go from “I’m a lion, not a sheep” to “Send thoughts and prayers” to “Apparently God wanted him in heaven” (if there is a God, he wants you to take the vaccine that he helped create, ya’ fuckin’ heathens) to the inevitable GoFundMe to cover the expenses incurred by the fucking lion.

[Voyager]

@Raucous84

I’m guessing that may be in part why so many people are vaccine opposed. They haven’t dealt with the most dangerous aspects of the virus, and hence, they occupy the mentality of “because it hasn’t happened to me, it must not be”.

Perhaps, but there are some people who, after opposing vaccines had loved ones die of the virus, repented, and some who were proud of the newly dead person for resisting. Some people on respirators appear not to regret forgoing vaccination.
Most of these people are way beyond the young person “I am invulnerable” stage.

[SuntanLotion]

Someone on Twitter said s Florida has the lowest rate now. I’m thinking they’re wrong

[PhillyGuy]

It comes and goes, everywhere. The Washington Post 7 day tracker has them at the bottom of all states, tied with Louisiana, for 7 day rolling new cases, but above-average for deaths.

Puerto Rico is now lowest, of any state or territory, for both cases and deaths.

[Tfletch1]

@Raucous84

The vaccine does not prevent infection, and the vaccinated can get and transmit C-19 as well

This is not true.

[Tfletch1]

@Raucous84

I think that medical professionals working in larger facilities and business sectors that interface with the public should be vaccinated, but a mandate is a bit much.

With respect to Healthcare professionals, this is their job. Mandating that people perform their duties is not “a bit much”.

[What_Exit]

No surprise, a sock and a troll.

[Euphonious_Polemic]

Thank you for your service.

[RitterSport]

The NY Times has Hawaii and Louisiana as lower right now.

One concern I have is that the summer is indoor season down south, which is why their caseload increased. Up north, we’re getting to indoor season now – hopefully, the increased number of vaccines in the northeast will keep the caseload and number of deaths down.

[tofor]

@Tfletch1

This is not true.

Your blanket denial of these particular statements surprised me.

“The vaccine does not prevent infection”
“the vaccinated can get and transmit C-19”

These are both clearly true in a literal sense of “prevent” and “can”.

But beyond that I was under the impression that we still didn’t have good data on how well the vaccine reduced infection or transmission because the trials relied only on symptoms and deaths.

[Tfletch1]

@tofor

Your blanket denial of these particular statements surprised me.

“The vaccine does not prevent infection”
“the vaccinated can get and transmit C-19”

I read his post “as well as” but maybe he meant also. Whatever. I’m not interested in quibbling over semantics. If he doesn’t state that vaccination reduces infection and transmission, he’s still writing a misleading post.

There are several studies that included covid testing in their design. That’s how we know about waning effectiveness against infection beyond 6 months. That’s how we know that Moderna seems to hold up better against infection after several months compared to Pfizer. That’s how we know that the booster shot works to prevent infection six months past the second shot. However, all of them protect well against severe illness after several months.