VCO3's rape question

The BBQ Pit
81

[QUOTE=Beadalin]

IMO, the “rape is about power, not sex” thing was introduced and strongly defended by many people in order to get others past the idea – at one time common – that a man who raped a woman did so because he was so horny that he just couldn’t help himself. The old view was that a man needs sex and it’s up to the woman to stop him; a man didn’t rape a woman to hurt her, he raped her because he just HAD to get some.

By shifting the public’s view of rape to one that understood it as a violent attack rather than some sort of natural consequence for sexual behavior, it helped remove the stigma of rape from the victim. BUT, it also caused people to lose sight of the fact that rape IS a sexual attack, not “just” a violent one.
[/QUOTE]

Another IMO (or ATMH:According To My Hypothesis): “Rape is about power, not sex,” was told to victims in order to help them steer themselves from feelings of shame to realization that what was done to them was an injustice. In that sense, I think there is truth to the phrase. But I think it would be wrong to think that for the perpetrator rape is generally about power and not sex.

-FrL-

82

[QUOTE=Dr. Deth]
But GD?
[/QUOTE]

hits replay button

The thread was in General Questions, not Great Debates.

83

[QUOTE=Zoggie]
I think it depends on what’s happening. In a lot of cases of sexual assault/rape, the assailant is actively trying to inflict pain or discomfort, so it’s kind of hard to imagine how one would feel pleasure. Then again, in other contexts, I’ve experienced some sexual roughness. I think the important thing is context.

.
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Of course context is important. But the point I was referencing referred specifically to RAPE. Not being touched in any other type of way, raped.
It’s in that context that I took it to mean that they were saying that women’s bodies respond even if they are not turned on. I disagree that this is always or even usually the case WITH RAPE.

Now with other situations, anything’s possible as has been displayed by numerous responses in the thread. I concur with that. The human body is unpredictable and sometimes things aren’t consistent.

84

[QUOTE=Epimetheus]
I have had many relationships, and while I know sometimes my SO is aroused and not wet, I have never seen the reverse. I’ve never thought to ask if the reverse was true either.
[/QUOTE]

Bolding mine.

Probably this is a big part of the problem of knowledge: 99% of guys will not find out about their sexual partner’s wetness state if said partner is not aroused, because…well, it’s obvious.

85

[QUOTE=marshmallow]

Well hell, since we’re on the subject: girls, do you ever get wet on the bus or riding in a car? Because as a man, those activities can be quite uncomfortable sometimes…

[/QUOTE]

Yes, the vibrations caused by a bus engine will sometimes make me not only wet, but also aroused. Needless to say, I still don’t want to have or consent to have sex while on a bus. Is this a woman thing? Don’t men get erections and/or feel sexually aroused but still not want to have sex? I was sure they did.

[QUOTE=Cattitude]
Well, I don’t know who your source was but I wonder if they are speaking from experience? Because I find that while the above might possibly be true in some cases, I don’t think it’s true in even the majority of cases.
[/QUOTE]

I didn’t read the answer as saying it always or even in the majority of cases happens, just that it CAN happen. Or if that wasn’t what the writer meant, then that’s how I would ammend it.

Rape CAN cause a woman’s body to experience feelings of pleasure, even orgasm. I think this information has been whispered in secret between survivors because it’s easy to twist and misconstrue into “well, obviously she wanted it.” No. She didn’t. Nerve endings respond when they are touched, regardless of whether or not you want them to. The punch in the face is a good example. Or putting in eyedrops - how many of us simply cannot control that blink, even if we really, really want to get the drops in our eyes?

If you need a personal assurance from a survivor that good sexual feelings can happen while one is forced to have sex against her will, I’ll stand up and admit to it. And yeah, it fucked my head up good for a while there.

86

[QUOTE=marshmallow]
Well hell, since we’re on the subject: girls, do you ever get wet on the bus or riding in a car? Because as a man, those activities can be quite uncomfortable sometimes…
[/QUOTE]

Do you ever get an erection from eating ice cream? But you don’t want to have sex with the ice cream, do you? It just happens.

Key words, there - it just happens! I’m not going into any more detail than that. :slight_smile:

ETA: Oh yeah! gives WhyNot a hug

87

[QUOTE=DrDeth]
As worded I can’t see the question as anything but trolling. Sorry.

Now if he had asked “Is “rape” - my defintion of a man attacking a woman and, as she struggles, engaging in penetrative vaginal sex against her will - a common thing?” then I’d see a question. But GD?
[/QUOTE]

Me too. I haven’t cut anybodys head off with a short knife but I have seen it done on the internet. Does it mean I need someone to explain it to me to understand it can be done? No. I’ve experienced violence-o-plenty in my happy time on this earth but some things are just better left unsaid. Most adults know this.

And by great debate I was refering to this thread.

88

I seriously have to wonder how someone could not know the answer to VCO3’s question. Rape has been discussed as a phenomenon since prehistoric days. Is he entertaining the idea that it must be some kind of myth? That’s the only reason I could see for asking that question.

Not knowing the mechanics is one thing. But to question the very idea of it takes a bit more than ignorance. The more charitable explanation is that VCO3 is completely void of an imagination. You don’t need lube to squeeze hard pegs into soft holes; most of the time all you need is elbow grease and leverage. Add in the fact that your average vagina is not going to be a dry bone desert, and there you have it. Are we really supposed to believe he couldn’t figure this out on his own? Really? Gimme a break.

89

[QUOTE=Omegaman]
Me too. I haven’t cut anybodys head off with a short knife but I have seen it done on the internet. Does it mean I need someone to explain it to me to understand it can be done? No. I’ve experienced violence-o-plenty in my happy time on this earth but some things are just better left unsaid. Most adults know this.

And by great debate I was refering to this thread.
[/QUOTE]

(bolding mine)

I find this an appalling statement on a message board dedicated to fighting ignorance. No, these things in particular are NOT better left unsaid. It’s better that people know how things work, for example, so that women don’t get dismissed and blamed for their own rapes because they “must have wanted it” or the rape would be “impossible.” Or a man initiating sex with his wife understands that if she’s wet and saying “no”, she really means it. Or, conversely, that if she’s dry and saying “yes”, she really means it and would you pass the lube, please.

There is absolutely no good reason for us to be ignorant of how each others’ bodies work. Such ignorance only promotes shame and mistrust and increases misunderstandings and violence against those who are different than we are.

Yes, I am aware of VC03’s reputation for trollery on this board, and I don’t doubt that’s why his thread was shut down. But there are at least two other men in this thread who didn’t understand the mechanics of the thing either. At least their true ignorance is fought in this thread, even if VC03’s ignorance was feigned.

ETA: hugs Anaamika I’m much better now, thanks. But I’ll never pass up a hug! :smiley:

90

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
Don’t men get erections and/or feel sexually aroused but still not want to have sex?
[/QUOTE]

Only for small guys in prison. :wink:
Heck, I don’t need to be aroused to want to have sex.

91

[QUOTE=WhyNot]

Rape CAN cause a woman’s body to experience feelings of pleasure, even orgasm. I think this information has been whispered in secret between survivors because it’s easy to twist and misconstrue into “well, obviously she wanted it.” No. She didn’t. .
[/QUOTE]

Oh I know this. I just wanted to state all sides. And hopefully now all sides are stated and made clear on this issue.

One last thing. I’m not sure if the men here actually realize how many women have been affected by rape or sexual assault. Many more than they might think.
I know besides myself, I have 2 friends, 3 family members, and several acquaintances that have been affected personally.

92

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
Is this a woman thing? Don’t men get erections and/or feel sexually aroused but still not want to have sex? I was sure they did.
[/QUOTE]
You are absolutely correct. It’s especially unpleasant when an unwelcome erection comes with a full bladder. :slight_smile:

Ditto.

ETA: Oh, and one more set of props to WhyNot:

Thank you. The phrasing of the OP aside, I certainly don’t want to be part of this board if the attitude is going to be that we’re better off NOT asking questions where ignorance may exist.

93

I’ve noticed from time to time someone will express incredulity about female-on-male rape.

So, going for 3 birds with one stone, I want to mention one of my favorite novels, The Abyssinian Chronicles by Moses Isegawa , which has a scene of male-on-female gang rape, AND a scene of female-on-male gang rape. (Most of the novel takes place in Uganda before, during, and after the reign of Idi Amin.)

I mention this, because this novel really cleared up the question of “How?” if not in some cases the “Why?” of rape for me. It even mentions the bit about the victim orgasming (male and female, both).

It really is a fun novel, otherwise, I swear. It’s like African Magical Realism .

94

[QUOTE=CaerieD]
Yes. I’ve also gotten wet from taking a bite of a really good ham sandwich.
[/quote]

“I’ll have what she’s having.”

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
Yes, the vibrations caused by a bus engine will sometimes make me not only wet, but also aroused. Needless to say, I still don’t want to have or consent to have sex while on a bus. Is this a woman thing? Don’t men get erections and/or feel sexually aroused but still not want to have sex? I was sure they did.
[/quote]

Sure, that definitely happens. However, if an erection spontaneously springs into existence and lasts for more than a couple minutes I’ll probably have sex on the mind for awhile. And I thought aroused, colloquially, would tend to mean ready to have sex from both mental and physical viewpoints. You even said it yourself in the first sentence, dividing the two: “will sometimes make me not only wet, but also aroused.”

[QUOTE=Anaamika]
Do you ever get an erection from eating ice cream? But you don’t want to have sex with the ice cream, do you? It just happens.
[/quote]

I was just asking a matter 'o fact question. I’m well aware of the mental/physical components. I would hope everyone would be.

But to honestly answer your rhetorical question, no, I don’t think I’ve ever gotten an erection from eating any type of food, although I have of course gotten erections from other non-sexual/ogling a woman activities, especially if they involve a burst of adrenaline or increased blood pressure or I just find something really interesting, like a movie or a book or whatever. Someone upthread mentioned they get wet from fear/anxiety sometimes – I can’t relate to that, since fear is the fastest way I know of to kill a boner.

So, see, even if the genesis of this entire conservation was pretty stupid and involved a troll, I’ve learned something – women can get wet during a bumpy car ride. That is valuable fact which, besides appealing to prurient interests, could surely, someday, have a practical application…

95

[QUOTE=Crotalus]
That wasn’t him. I think it was a miniature entrepreneur who owned a store, somewhere in the UK, since banned.
[/QUOTE]

Who was that? It sounds familiar…

96

[QUOTE=marshmallow]
And I thought aroused, colloquially, would tend to mean ready to have sex from both mental and physical viewpoints. You even said it yourself in the first sentence, dividing the two: “will sometimes make me not only wet, but also aroused.”
[/QUOTE]

No, no, no. I’m dividing into THREE. A) Wetness from fluid in the vagina leaking into the labia B) physical feelings of sexual arousal (“tingly feeling 'twixt my nethers”) and C) the desire to have sex. Any of them may or may not be present with any of the others. A bus ride may make me feel A and/or B, but it has never yet made me feel C.

97

[QUOTE=Beadalin]
Sometimes juices flow because of terror. The processes that create pussy juice don’t know the difference between arousal due to fight-or-flight response and arousal due to sexual anticipation.

Take this scenario: your heart beats faster, you flush, your breath shortens, some of your muscles are tense but maybe you feel weak in the knees, your mouth waters or goes dry, you’re shaking. Now, are you frightened or filled with desire?
[/QUOTE]

I am a little curious about the lube question. My theory is that the victim doesn’t actually lubricate at all and that this deters the rapist not one bit. The pounding away at a dry vagina causes pain and injury, which is probably not least of the reasons rape is such a horrific experience. No?

98

[QUOTE=Brain Wreck]
I am a little curious about the lube question. My theory is that the victim doesn’t actually lubricate at all and that this deters the rapist not one bit. The pounding away at a dry vagina causes pain and injury, which is probably not least of the reasons rape is such a horrific experience. No?
[/QUOTE]

sigh

No. Didja read the thread?

Yes, sometimes she stays dry for a bit, but something - either vaginal secretions, cervical fluid or just plain blood will come forth shortly. Dry sex is not only not fun, but it makes things tear, so the body tries to lubricate, regardless of sexual arousal or desire. Dry *rough *sex makes things bleed, so if the body doesn’t lubricate with fluid, it will tear and “lubricate” with blood. One way or the other, the vagina will not stay dry long, no matter how un-aroused or un-consenting the victim is.

The physical pain and injury of most rapes is over with within a few days when the vaginal walls heal and the pelvic bruising goes away. (There are some assholes out there who like their victims with lots of broken bones or gashes in their skin - obviously those take longer to heal.) For most (I won’t say “all”) rape victims, the physical pain IS the least of the reasons rape is such a horrible experience. The psychological and emotional pain and injury is usually (again, not always) longer lasting and harder to heal. There is no single “normal” response to rape. (<-----That last sentence has been my soap box lately, and I’m just as sick of it as the rest of y’all.)

99

[QUOTE=Anne Neville]
Not only is it possible to have sex without vaginal lubrication, it’s considered desirable by some people. The practice of “dry sex” is a significant contributor to the spread of HIV among heterosexuals in some parts of Africa.
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I’ve heard about this, but wouldn’t it also be horribly painful for the man involved? It just seems like such a basic thing–you have sex, you require some lubricant. It’s mind boggling that people would think this way.

100

VC03’s question is why all boys, in their final year of high school, should be forced to watch Deliverance. The rape scene in that film would help drive home the reality of rape- as it is brutal and happening to a man.