Vegans/vegetarians - do you rank different animal farming industries at all?

In My Humble Opinion
1

This is a question primarily for vegans, plus vegetarians who are such on the basis of a desire to reduce exploitation of, or harm to animals…

Would you say that there is any kind of ranking (from let’s say ‘awful’ to ‘not so awful’) in the animal-based food production processes? IOW, are there ‘degrees’ of wrong?

Let’s confine it to cases where animals are killed to produce the food product, are any of these, in your opinion, ‘better’ or ‘worse’ than others in the list? (that is, morally, ethically, or by any other metric that you believe is important)

Factory farming mammals such as cows, pigs, sheep for meat
As above, but free range farming methods
Factory farming birds such as chickens, turkeys, ducks for meat
As above, but free range farming methods
Farming fish in ponds or ocean pens
Farming crustaceans such as crabs, shrimp
Farming molluscs such as oysters, mussels
Farming insects such as crickets, mealworms
Hunting wild game such as deer, wild boar
Hunting wild birds such as ducks, geese, grouse
Fishing with nets
Fishing with a line or a spear
Catching wild crabs or shrimps in pots, nets
Foraging for wild molluscs
Foraging for wild insects

In case it isn’t obvious, what I am seeking is opinions on whether the methods, or the type of animal makes any difference to your estimation of how objectionable the thing is. All views on this are welcome.

Feel free to break down this list if the groupings I have used don’t make sense, or to add items into the list if I have omitted anything you think is important.

2

NB: ‘there is no distinction’ is also a valid response, if anyone wants to say that

3

I’m not vegan/vegetarian, but my wife and I ARE significantly reducing our intake of animal protein. Our reasons are primarily health related, but animal treatment and environmental factors also contribute.

We eat negligible beef, but to us “free range, grass fed” beef would be more desirable than “feedlot.”
We used to eat a bt of pork, but the fact that such intelligent creatures are essentially tortured in confinement makes it less appetizing to us.
And the conditions of factory farmed poultry are pretty unappetizing. Even if we think them “lesser” forms of life, I don’t perceive a desirability of torturing them.
Waste lagoons and runoff from raising feed corn are also undesirable.

Fish is the most common animal protein we eat, but there are issues of aquaculture and overfishing.

In short - yes, this “near” vegetarian feels the means of production is relevant. The eating of sustainably raised/harvested animals gives me no problem.

4

I’m not vegan, but my sister is mostly vegan. I know she has stated that she doesn’t have a problem with eating eggs per se., if those eggs come from chickens that are free range and humanely treated. Her problem is with the “factory farms” that produce the vast majority of our eggs.

5

Vegetarian here.

It’s complicated; I’d generally put the assorted factory farming as worst, the hunting/foraging/fishing with a line or spear as generally not bad and eating roadkill as best of all. It sucks for the animal killed regardless, but it sucking for 30 seconds vs it sucking for a lifetime seems a pretty clear difference to me. Hunting also, if sensibly managed, only really affects the animal killed, not everything else in the area.

‘Fishing with nets’ is too broad- that covers small-scale throw nets, which can be targeted almost as well as line fishing, with unwanted catch just being released to swim off, all the way up to the multi-mile long stuff that catches anything in its path and even scours the seabed, with the non-saleable catch being chucked back dead, because when you’re catching stuff on that scale it’s largely dead by the time you’ve got the net in the boat and empty. One has been carried out for millennia without real knock-on effects on other organisms, the other is incompatible with a healthy sea ecology. If animals starve to death because humans catch all their food, they’ve still been killed by humans, even if we didn’t eat them.

I’d also put the fish and shrimp farming as really bad, 'cos they don’t breed the shrimp, they catch them as larvae and rear them, and the bycatch is something like 95% for some kinds. Anything caught (in a really fine net, because they’re aiming for baby shrimp) that isn’t the target species is often killed and used as shrimp food or fertiliser, pretty much regardless of what it is, which means far too intense pressure on local areas and often major environmental damage to boot. Likewise fish farming can be seriously polluting- which means killing other animals, even if it happens out of sight.

‘Free range’ can also be pretty hit ‘n miss; some of the guidelines are as simple as ‘must have access to an outside area’. A family friend did a study on one so called ‘free range’ chicken farm and found that most of the chickens, in their whole life, never once made it to the outside area, because there were like 10,000 chickens in a big barn with a little outside area and the dominant 50 or so just claimed the premium space. Caged chickens (this was UK standards; large cages and different breeds to US) were actually healthier and showed more natural behaviour; space was cramped, but they weren’t having to fight a constant unwinnable fight for dominance, they could get familiar with just a few cage mates. The bloke with 10 chickens pecking round the backyard on the other hand probably has happy chooks, and if one occasionally goes off lay and winds up in a pie, I’m not going to get too bothered, same as I wouldn’t if a fox caught a wild bird. We can’t stop death from happening, but we can stop deliberately making animals’ lives shit first, even if it is cheaper.

6

No distinction. Some people are vegans for health reasons, not for ethical considerations.

7

I’ve chosen not to eat meat for compassionate or ethical reasons. I definitely think some farming methods are better or worse than others from an animal welfare point of view. I’m no expert, but I’ve been led to understand that pig farming is among the worst. This would definitely be reflected in my relative unwillingness to buy or eat different kinds of meat (although I don’t normally eat meat at all). My conscience would be less troubled by eating lamb than bacon.

You also ask about the type of animal. I would relatively happily eat mussels or other bivalves.

8

Vegetarian here & following is my ranking of AWFUL to Not-So-Awful:

(1) Factory farming mammals such as cows, pigs, sheep for meat
(2) Factory farming birds such as chickens, turkeys, ducks for meat
(3) As above, but free range farming methods-referring to (1)
(4) As above, but free range farming methods-referring to (2)
(5) Hunting wild game such as deer, wild boar
(6) Hunting wild birds such as ducks, geese, grouse
(7) Fishing with nets
(8) Catching wild crabs or shrimps in pots, nets
(9) Fishing with a line or a spear
(10) Foraging for wild molluscs
(11) Foraging for wild insects
(12) Farming fish in ponds or ocean pens
(13) Farming crustaceans such as crabs, shrimp
(14) Farming molluscs such as oysters, mussels
(15) Farming insects such as crickets, mealworms

9

+1

I’d prefer that humans not be cruel to the animals they kill for food, if they must do it. But it isn’t anything I’ve devoted any significant time to thinking about, let alone enough to “rank” animal farming industries.

10

I’m vegetarian. I’m not drawing distinctions as you asked. The reason is simple: I just don’t eat any animals, so the differences between them are not a question I need to answer. Obviously, I’d rather hang around someone while they forage shellfish instead of visiting a slaughterhouse, but none of these considerations influence my diet in any way, because I reject them all.

11

This question wasn’t intended for such respondents, but I think that’s my fault for ambiguous wording:

I meant that this is a question for vegans and vegetarians, who in both cases have chosen this way because of ethics.

12

Vegan here. I guess when I think about it I apply a general scale that factors in length of suffering and consciousness of treatment; this would place intensively farmed pigs and cows towards one end (most harm), and shellfish and insects down the other end (less harm). As a vegan I factor in suffering such as cows and calves being separated soon after birth and shredding/gassing of male chicks, not just the end game.

I think on that basis I might place wild hunted more towards the less harm end (but not by much) as farmed animals that have to go to an abattoir experience high levels of stress and are highly aware of the fear and pain those going before are experiencing - something that a wild animal that is shot and dies in seconds or minutes avoids. But it’s still death - taking another living creature’s life by choice, where there are less harmful options available.

Of course, someone always raises the ‘but what about the mice and insects that die from vegetable and grain farming’ (ignoring the fact for the moment that that is as much at the feet of omnivores as vegans) - when it comes to the decisions I make, I am just trying to do as little harm as possible at every point.

13

Vegan here.

The problem with this thought experiment is that it tends to lead to the conclusion that some exploitation is acceptable because it is “less bad.” Often, that’s the reason the question is posed at all – to try to find a level of exploitation one can tolerate.

This problem is more obvious if one extends the thought experiment to humans.

“Is date rape less harmful than / more acceptable than gang rape?”

“If I keep a child sex slave in the basement, but I am nice to them and make sure they have plenty of toys and home schooling, isn’t that not so bad?”

“If I maim people and take their wallets, it’s not as bad as if i kill them and take their wallets, right?”

Uh, I guess, maybe.

But nobody want to get hurt or lose their wallet. Animals just can’t speak human languages to tell you that.

14

You probably know this, but for the benefit of the general readership, we use MORE grain farming to support animal agriculture, so eating meat will always kill substantially more mice and insects than eating strictly plant foods.

15

Ted Nugent is definitely not a vegan. He eats meat but only that comes from his farm, a farm where knows the owner, or meat he has hunted.

In the future I hope to start a farm that raises custom meat for people who want that.

16

I just want to add that as they develop laboratory made meat this discussion will have to change.

17

There is a bit of that - there are no wrong responses in this thread, so I am glad of your input - I’m trying to get a handle on whether there is such a thing as an acceptable level of animal exploitation (mainly because I think I recognise that absolute zero is unattainable).
But also, I think this exercise could still be useful in terms of setting priorities, if it is true that not everything can be changed overnight.

18

I’m pretty much the same but am sort of reluctantly vegetarian rather than vegan, trying to eliminate dairy products but finding it difficult. I have fewer ethical issues with eating bivalves like mussels than I do with eating cheese; mussels aren’t exactly sentient beings, and they can be farmed fairly ethically.

Your last paragraph is point of view too. The thing is, most meat-eaters also have limits. (Not all do, obvs). A lot won’t eat dog, for example. I’m not aiming for perfection, just trying cause less harm, and my line for that is drawn in a different place to meat-eaters.

Even though I don’t eat meat I do still have opinions about how meat should be raised, and encourage efforts to encourage people to eat meat that’s been raised well and slaughtered relatively humanely. Not only is that qualitatively better for the animal, if everyone only ate free-range meat they’d end up eating less of it, and some would eventually find that it wasn’t so essential for them after all and switch to not eating meat. You have to work with the realities of the world we live in rather than acting as if we already live in a world where vegetarianism is the norm.