Vegetarian/Vegan Poll

[obidiah]

*Originally posted by Torus *
**I think we would both put off eating our dog until it we were absolutely at death’s door. We would try to eat all manner of other things before consuming something that we had raised for the purpose of love and companionship. **

Absolutely. I should have indicated this would have been an absolute last recourse!

**Why would we give in at the last moment? I think it is because we instictively and egotistically believe that our purpose on the planet is greater than that of the dog’s purpose. **

I’m not sure it is about whose purpose is greater (at least in my mind). I think it goes down to a level deeper than that…you get into survival mode and care only about living another hour or another day.
Of course, I haven’t been in that sitch, so who knows what it is.

This is even more interesting to me than the hypothetical situation. Consider the sentient level of cows versus corn. I grew up in the Dairy State and I can assure you that describing cows as sentient and emotive and intelligent is being extremely generous. What do cows do all day? They slurp up water, they munch nutrients from a trough, and they pass gas. They occasionally procreate (at least cows and bulls do). What do stalks of corn do? They slurp up water, they extract nutrients from the soil, and they pass gas. They procreate when they can.

Hmmm…I’m dubious. As I said before, it is about the evidence I’ve seen. That evidence leads me to believe (truthfully or not!) that animals are acting at a higher intellectual level than plants.
I have seen cows and pigs being let to a slaughterhoouse gate. They are aware what is going on. They are able about to feel pain and emote. I’m not trying to indicate that Cows rival the intellect of humans, only that they know what is happening around them. Pigs, on the other hand, are highly intelligent beings on par with domesticated dogs.

There is lots of empirical evidence that plants sense many things. They react to sunlight, sound, handling…they wither and die away without water or nutrients. While their sensory mechanisms are certainly different from animals, they are clearly sentient.

I wouldn’t disagree that they are sentient. I think the question is are they intelligent?

**

It seems to me that the decision that plants are more acceptable food than animals based on the sensory criteria is much more about us than it is about them. It is egotistical as well. It seems evil to eat animals because their sensory systems are closer to OURS! Cow’s eyes are remarkably similar to human’s eyes, so they must be “more sentient” and a “higher” form of life. Because their process of bearing young is similar to ours, we put them above life forms who reproduce in different ways, like plants. But this is all about us, not about them. **

Certainly it is all about me! What other point of view could I take? It is just my point of view is animals raised for food are treated horrifically on this planet without any concern or care for the pain and suffering that fill every moment of their lives.

**

Think of this hypothetical. Occasionally, babies are born with no brain. I can’t remember the name of the condition, and it is thankfully rare, but it does happen. Without a brain these babies have no sensory mechanism whatsoever. Do this make them acceptable as food? Of course not! Why? Because these babies were not brought into the world with the purpose of serving as food. They were brought into the world to provide love and companionship and serve as outlets for our own love and caring. Their lives were tragically cut short before they could fully serve their purpose.**

Johnathon Swift might disagree!

**

I really just would like to understand the motivations. If the motivation is simply that it makes you feel bad to consume animals who have traits that are similar to humans than I can understand that. But no one seems to just come out and say it.**

Well, it makes me feel “bad” and I think a lot of people have come out and said it, here and in other places. Of course I can empathize with them on a level different from plants. But, again, I don’t think that plants are able to cognitively feel pain and suffering and emotions on the level mammals do.

**

Other people on this thread have stated that they simply don’t like the taste or the smell of meat, so they don’t eat it. That sure makes sense. I don’t like the taste of carrots and won’t go near them. Squash, too. But that doesn’t make it evil for people who do like the taste and smell of meat, to eat it. It doesn’t make us disrespectful of life.**

Talk to The Great Unwashed about the evil nature of meat eaters. I’m sticking to my point of view. I would prefer that you didn’t eat meat, but it is an individual choice.

This post is probably haphazard at best. My coffee maker is broken!

[Torus]

Great Unwashed,
You’re not a very logical guy, are you?

*Originally posted by The Great Unwashed *
**
So Torus, your well thought out comments on sex and animal instincts fail to observe our habits for sexual modesty, for the widespread use of contraceptive methods, for the laws that pertain to sexual conduct, etc., etc., etc.

You stated that we had “transcended our base animal instincts”, and you stated it without support. Now you cite “our habits for sexual modesty” as support. Brilliant. Do a quick web search on “Throbbing” to find out how modest we’ve become. Then you cite the widespread use of contraceptives as evidence that we have transcended our base animal instincts with regard to sex. Contraceptives are used to indulge our base animal instincts without having the consequences of pregnancy. Contraceptives allow us to screw like rabbits with some measure of protection against disease. Contraceptives are collosal proof that we will do nearly anything to be able to continue to satiate our base animal instincts with a minimum of cost. Lastly, you cite laws that pertain to sexual conduct as evidence that we have transcended our base animal instincts. Laws are in place to try - I repeat try - to enforce consequences on those who indulge so thoroughly in their base animal instincts, that they harm others in doing so. If you have seen a law that effectively eliminates the libido, I’d like to hear about it. Otherwise, admit you are wrong.

Oh, and “etc., etc., etc.” doesn’t cut it.

I can only guess that your stance with regards to the innocent slaughter of vegetables is intended to be ironic, actually it is merely noise. FWIW I eat to survive, I just don’t need to eat meat to do so, and neither do you.

It was not intended to be ironic at all. I would like to know how you justify taking plant life at every meal. If you make your diet decisions based on a desire to preserve life, then WHY do you value animal life over plant life? I’m not saying you shouldn’t, I’d just like to know how you justify it. You don’t need to eat plants to survive either. You could live on meat, fish, chicken, dairy. It probably wouldn’t be very healthy, but then at least you wouldn’t be murdering a healthy plant with each bite of salad.

I personally value some animals higher than some plants, and some plants higher than some animals. I would choose to eat any plant over eating my dog, but I’d rather eat a steak than munch on my houseplants. So how do YOU justify your decisions?

Well you go right ahead and be as blinkered and as full of self-denial as you need to be. But when you say that you “eat plants and animals with the same level of respect that they deserve” I’m bothered by the suggestion that plants and animals deserve the same level of respect, is that the “issue” that you see in me? That I differentiate?

Instead of ad hominem attacks about my level of self denial, why don’t you show me how I am wrong? Can you put together a coherent argument WHY I shouldn’t eat meat? If you can, do so. Otherwise, go away. I believe all living things deserve respect, and treating food-life with respect does not preclude eating it.

Joking? No, but if you’d read my post with a minimum of care you would have seen that I was being intentionally immoderate (though I take back nothing).

I had to read your post several times because it was so poorly written, and apparently I wasn’t the only one that felt that way. Give it another try GU. I’m sure you can do a better job next time.

[Torus]

*Originally posted by Torus *
**I personally value some animals higher than some plants, and some plants higher than some animals.
**

I mis-spoke (mis-wrote) when I wrote this. I try to value all things objectively based on how well they serve their purpose of being. I just happen to more highly value some plants and animals as food, and some plants and animals for other things that they provide.

[alice_in_wonderland]

Great Unwashed I thought your little rant was a joke. Apparently I wasn’t.

IMHO, IMHO is not the place for rants. It’s also not the place to start snitty arguments. Cut it out, K?

Al.

[BiblioCat]

Originally posted by even sven *
** The texture (especially fat and gristle) creeps me out and the taste is too heavy and makes me feel sick. Additionally, the thought of muching through veins, …*

I’ve seen this arguement before in the vegan/omnivore threads, about gristle and veins.
If the meat you’re being served is nothing but fat and gristle, find better meat. You’re not supposed to eat the fat and gristle. Okay, yeah, some people do eat the fat, and the fat is what adds flavor, but the gristle is not meant to be eaten.
And munching throught veins? I don’t understand that comment at all. You don’t eat veins. I’ve never been served a piece of meat with veins on it.
And as another poster mentioned, I don’t necessarily think eating meat is “evil.” I understand that some people may find the taste not to their liking. I don’t like eggplant or squash or zucchini. I think they’re downright disgusting. (The texture is just not appealing to me, which is what many veggie posters have said about meat.) So I just don’t eat them! Doesn’t mean anyone who DOES eat them is evil.
I happen to like meat. You don’t. No big deal.

[LolaBaby]

*Originally posted by BiblioCat *
**
I happen to like meat. You don’t. No big deal. **

That’s what I say…all I wanted was a (mature)perspective from different eating habits. Perhaps I may go back, one day, but I am certainly not going to be convinced by idiotic ranting.

So now I am the Evil Meat-Eater who drives the Evil SUV From Hell. :rolleyes:

Thanks to Torus, alice, and BiblioCat for bring it back (somewhat) on topic.

[alice_in_wonderland]

*Originally posted by BiblioCat *
And munching throught veins? I don’t understand that comment at all. You don’t eat veins. I’ve never been served a piece of meat with veins on it.

See, but even sven didn’t say it was the actual eating, she said it was the THOUGHT of eating the veins that turned her off.

I can understand this totally - if I don’t think about it, I can eat eggs - I actually enjoy eggs-benedict once in a blue moon (without the Canadian bacon, of course). However, the minute I start thinking about what eggs actually are, there’s no way one would get past my lips. Taste and texture don’t have too much to do with it - just the thought of little pseudo-half chickens makes me gag. Aw, man - now I thinking about it. Blech. And it’s right before lunch, too…

Regarding meat eaters being evil, well, that’s just plainly absurd. Why ANYONE - meat-eater or veggie - would get that worked up over someone else’s eating habits as to call them evil is beyond me. :rolleyes: