Venezuela's Political Situation

[ZooMetropolis]

Chumpsky. I just remembered a questiona I have asked you and you (conveniently) have ignored. What has Chavez done for the poor people?

[Duck_Duck_Goose]

I count four different concurrent hijacks going on in this thread. That must be some kind of record.

1. Cuba.
2. Haiti.
3. Chile.
4. Chumpsky.

Could the rest of y’all please do the Great Debates Right Thing and take your Cuba/Haiti/Chile hijacks over into their own threads (I see that Daoloth has very kindly taken care of the Chumpsky hijack, thank you, Daoloth), so that the rest of us can do the Great Debates Right Thing for the OP (whose country it is, after all, that is experiencing this tremendous turmoil) and get back to the discussion of Venezuela.

Okay? Guys? Can we please just sit on our hands and not post anything more about Cuba, or Chile, or Haiti, or Chumpsky?

…please?

---

The OP started this thread by wanting to know what the mainstream Western press was saying about Venezuela, and on Thursday, it was all about oil.

Not any more.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/TRAVEL/12/06/venezuela.warning/index.html

Travelers warned to stay away from Venezuela
Friday, December 6, 2002 Posted: 7:14 PM EST (0014 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) – The State Department issued a travel warning for Venezuela on Friday, advising U.S. citizens “to defer nonessential travel” to that nation and suggesting that those already there consider leaving.

“The political and security situation in Venezuela has deteriorated as talks between the government of Venezuela and opposition forces to resolve the current political conflict stalled,” the warning says.

A general strike led by the opposition began Monday, “affecting both services and supplies of essential goods.” And since Wednesday it “has been accompanied by both opposition and pro-government demonstrations,” the advisory notes.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/americas/12/06/venezuela.OIL.ap/index.html

Gunfire kills 3 at opposition rally in Venezuela
Saturday, December 7, 2002 Posted: 12:09 AM EST (0509 GMT)

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) – Violence erupted at an opposition rally Friday moments after its leaders said they would extend and expand a general strike aimed at unseating President Hugo Chavez.

At least three people were killed and 28 others wounded, an official said.

The shootings at Plaza Francia in eastern Caracas came as diplomats worked to restart negotiations to end the strike, which has paralyzed Venezuela’s oil industry and brought political tensions to a boil.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/americas/12/07/venezuela.strike.ap/index.html

Thousands demonstrate to support Venezuelan leader
Pro-Chavez rally follows opposition violence
Saturday, December 7, 2002 Posted: 6:40 PM EST (2340 GMT)

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) – Thousands of people wearing red berets marched Saturday through the capital of oil-rich Venezuela to support embattled President Hugo Chavez a day after three people were fatally shot at an opposition rally.

Demonstrations by both sides of Venezeula’s political conflict had police worried of increased violence after gunmen opened fire Friday night into a plaza crowded with opposition demonstrators. In addition to the three deaths, 28 people were wounded.

The killings caused the opposition – until now seeking only a referendum on Chavez’s 4-year-old government – to demand his resignation. Leaders declared three days of mourning, calling for nationwide protests and the extension of a general strike that has already shut down Venezuela’s giant oil industry.

Venezuela is falling off the roster of civilized nations, people, and I think this is a LOT more important issue than rehashing Cuba or Haiti or Chile.

Or Chumpsky.

[GIGObuster]

I Agree DDG. However, the Chile angle is IMO an historical perspective, remember what they said about ignoring history?

It is scarier when you take into account that there was another coup attempt in Chile before Pinochet succeeded in the next coup. That situation followed a pattern like the one I see in Venezuela now.

[Mighty_Girl]

Captain, I am hijacking this thread. Take me to Cuba Sorry, couldn’t help it.

Back to the OP…
The press in my country has extensively reported the Venezuelan situation. It is getting front page coverage everyday. The pundits insist that the US should condemn any attempt to overthrow Chavez (fat chance). They all accept that Chavez is bad news for Venezuela, but everybody is afraid that a coup will send the wrong message to other countries in Latin America.

“Cuando la barba del vecino veas cortar…”

[GIGObuster]

“. . . pon la tuya a remojar”

I love you Mighty_Girl!

[MEBuckner]

*Originally posted by The Peyote Coyote *
**And, chumpsky, a waste of oxygen like you is not credible with anyone who has the sense to pour piss from a boot. :wally **

Moderator’s Note: You will NOT post anything like that in Great Debates–or anywhere outside of the Pit, for that matter–again.

[The_Peyote_Coyote]

x

[The_Peyote_Coyote]

Sorry about that. Here’s what I meant to say:

quote:

Originally posted by The Peyote Coyote
And, chumpsky, a waste of oxygen like you is not credible with anyone who has the sense to pour piss from a boot.

Moderator’s Note: You will NOT post anything like that in Great Debates–or anywhere outside of the Pit, for that matter–again.

I see. Calling people liars repeatedly is just peachy keen, but one mustn’t insult the insulter. You’re a waste of oxygen, too, ME. Drop dead.

[David_B]

[Moderator Hat: ON]

Well, THERE is a smart thing to do, Peyote. When you are warned about insulting a poster, you insult the Moderator. Yessirree, that’s the way to make sure you stick around here for a long, long time. Considering you’ve already been here since 1999, one might think you’d know better… or at least that you should.

As I have already explained about Chumpsky in another thread, calling somebody a “liar” in Great Debates is not a rule violation. However, an insult like you have posted twice, most certainly is.

---

David B, SDMB Great Debates Moderator

[Moderator Hat: OFF]

[ZooMetropolis]

There was a video circulating that showed one of the Friday shooters assisting a gathering in favor of the government in La Campiña. This is what Chavez had to say aboit it:
http://www.el-nacional.com/Articulos/Articulo.asp?idSeccion=64&Plantilla=3&id=18602

Presentó el video aficionado transmitido por Globovisión en el que se vincula al alcalde Freddy Bernal con Joao De Gouveia, quien confesó haber disparado contra la multitud presente el viernes en la noche en la Plaza Altamira.

Calificó la cinta como un montaje, alegando que “ese señor” entró al país el 5 de diciembre, trece horas después del momento cuando se captaron las imágenes y mostró documentos del servicio migratorio que respaldan esta información.

Let me translate as best as I can:
"(Chavez) Showed the video transmitted by Globovisión, where the mayor (of Municipio Libertador) Freddy Bernal is vinculated with Joao De Gouveia (the shooter). This guy confessed he shot against the people last Friday night in the Plaza Altamira.

He (Chavez) qualified the tape as fake, allegating that “that man” entered the country on December 5th, thirteen hours after the images were captured, and showed documents of the migratory service to back this up".

What’s next Mr. Chavez? Are you going to say that Joao was from the opposition and what he wanted to do is to make you and your people look bad??? You better accept the facts. Not everything is a conspiracy.

[Colibri]

Originally posted by ZooMetropolis *
** Freddy Bernal is vinculated with Joao De Gouveia . . .*

A small clarification of the translation, which is otherwise good: “vinculated” should be “linked.”

[ZooMetropolis]

Thank you Colibri

[Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor]

Re: Chumpsky-----------

quote:

Originally posted by Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor
Hijack.
The offical position of the Cuban government is that Ernest Hemmingway was a capitalist oppressor of the Cuban masses, and that he hated the Cuban people.

What are your views on this subject?

*Originally posted by GIGObuster *
**Bosda do I have to bust you too?

NPR had a recent report on the new Hemingway museum in Cuba, in essence, the Cuban government has changed that position, if they had that. **

I was trying to see if Chumpsky would rise to the bait.

[RobertTB]

*Originally posted by Chumpsky *
**…For one thing, a “police state” is defined as “any state that does not allow free reign to capital.” Secondly, when you use the term “democracy” you are using it to mean “the freedom of capital to exploit resources and people.”
**

How do you get that from. “a country that maintains repressive control over the people by means of police (especially secret police”?

[Nanu]

People’s views:
The killings in plaza altamira:
1- crazy portugese nut
2- Chavez plan to scare the opposition fron going out
3- opposition ploy to blame Chavez

Personally I have no idea nor do I think it will ever be solved… Whith Chavez controlling the government agencies that are in charge of the investigation I don’t think we will ever be sure of the trouth…
one thing is very strainge: The people that were captured had not planned any type of escape after commiting tha murders, mmm
smells fishy to me…

[Bryan_Ekers]

I know absolutely nothing about Venezuela.

In that sense, I feel a spiritual bond with Chumpsky.

COWER TO THE STEEPLE!

[Colibri]

Y’know, it occurred to me that Chumpsky’s participation in this thread actually may serve a useful purpose, because his behavior is so similar to that of Chavez himself. They both rant, insult their opponents, demonize all other viewpoints, look for conspiracies everywhere, blame all problems on outside forces, and are impervious to rational discussion.

For American dopers, you will gain some perspective on the situation by imagining Chump as president of the United States. His behavior here shows very well why Chavez is so widely detested in Venezuela.

[Duck_Duck_Goose]

I know absolutely nothing about Venezuela.

Then allow me to fight some of your ignorance.

January, 2002.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ve.html

Venezuela was one of the three countries that emerged from the collapse of Gran Colombia in 1830 (the others being Colombia and Ecuador). For most of the first half of the 20th century, Venezuela was ruled by generally benevolent military strongmen, who promoted the oil industry and allowed for some social reforms. Democratically-elected governments have held sway since 1959. Current concerns include: an embattled president who is losing his once solid support among Venezuelans, a divided military, drug-related conflicts along the Colombian border, increasing internal drug consumption, overdependence on the petroleum industry with its price fluctuations, and irresponsible mining operations that are endangering the rain forest and indigenous peoples.

About 24,000,000 people, infant mortality rate 24.58, which is pretty good for South America, and a life expectancy of 73.56, which is quite good for any Third World nation. Venezuela has an HIV/AIDS rate of only .49% which is even lower than the CIA’s figures for the U.S.

Literacy rate of 91%.

Venezuela is a federal republic (just like us! ) with 23 states, a constitution, universal suffrage (voting age 18), they have a completely modern telephone system, 950,000 Internet users, 16 ISPs, and their entire economy is ruled by Oil.

The petroleum sector dominates the economy, accounting for roughly a third of GDP, around 80% of export earnings, and more than half of government operating revenues.

Last April, Chavez was ousted by coup that only lasted for a couple of days. Out on Friday, back by Sunday.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1929498.stm

Sunday, 14 April, 2002
Analysis: After the would-be coup

There will be relief in most of Latin America that President Hugo Chavez is back in power in Venezuela, with many seeing this as important for the development of democratic constitutional rule on the continent.

The populist Venezuelan leader was thrown out of office and taken prisoner by top military officers on Friday, after a general strike and mass protests by his opponents left at least 13 dead and more than 100 injured.

But he has now been restored to power after the lower ranks of the army apparently came to his rescue and crowds of supporters took to the streets.

This reaction did not reflect support for Mr Chavez himself.

A former paratrooper and coup plotter, he is regarded by many as a populist maverick.

However, the way he was overthrown - by top army officers after a dispute over who should control the country’s oil industry - brought back too many memories for most of decades of US-backed coups in Latin America.

And…

President Chavez was overthrown after a general strike called to support striking oil workers.

And…what are they having now, in Venezuela? That’s right, a strike.

And there’s this…

However, President Chavez’s comeback has also left Washington looking rather stupid.

That’s because first Washington, astonishingly enough, said this…

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/americas/04/12/venezuela/index.html

U.S.: Chavez ‘provoked’ crisis that led to ouster
April 12, 2002

CARACAS, Venezuela (CNN) – The U.S. government chided ousted Venezuela President Hugo Chavez on Friday, saying his government provoked the crisis that led to his expulsion and expressing tentative support for the interim administration.

Chavez relinquished power early Friday after a day of violent protests in Caracas that left 12 people dead and dozens wounded. Witnesses and television reports said sharpshooters fired into the crowd and that a military tribunal would investigate who ordered the shootings.

“Chavez supporters, on orders, fired on unarmed, peaceful demonstrators,” White House press secretary Ari Fleischer said, referring to Thursday’s violence that killed 12 people and wounded dozens more. “Venezuelan military and police refused to fire … and refused to support the government’s role in human rights violations.”

< snip >

The U.S. State Department statement expressed regret that the Chavez administration did not “act with restraint and show full respect for the peaceful expression of political opinion.” (Text of statement)

“We wish to express our solidarity with the Venezuelan people and look forward to working with all democratic forces in Venezuela to ensure the full exercise of democratic rights,” the statement said.

We were frankly all a little surprised that the Administration didn’t back up the rest of Latin America in condemning the coup, but it was obvious that the Administration was glad he was gone, and preferred to blame him for his own troubles.

But somehow we weren’t surprised, although we were amused, when after Chavez was, embarrassingly enough, brought back to power only two days later, Washington started having to deny that they’d been behind the coup.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/04/16/US.Venezuela/index.html

White House says it didn’t support Venezuela coup
April 17, 2002

WASHINGTON (CNN) – The Bush administration said Tuesday it did not encourage a failed coup in Venezuela, but acknowledged “conversations” with opposition leaders in that oil-rich country, as well as a meeting with Venezuela’s military chief-of-staff late last year.

< snip >

The United States has frequently been at odds with Chavez, a left-wing populist friendly to the regimes of Fidel Castro in Cuba and Saddam Hussein in Iraq.

The New York Times reported Tuesday that senior members of the Bush administration met several times in recent months with leaders of the coalition that briefly toppled Chavez from power.

The administration did not deny such meetings, but it took issue with the suggestion that the United States had given its tacit approval to any plot to overthrow the Chavez government.

“We explicitly told opposition leaders that the United States would not support a coup,” White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer told reporters. He cited several “conversations” between the opposition leaders and various officials within the State Department and the National Security Council.

< snip >

Fleischer said U.S. officials met with a “broad spectrum” of officials from Venezuela, ranging from business leaders, including Pedro Carmona, who helped lead the opposition against Chavez and briefly served as interim president, to pro-Chavez legislators, as well as labor leaders and officials from the Catholic Church.

At the Pentagon, spokeswoman Victoria Clarke cited a meeting last December between Venezuela’s military chief of staff and the U.S. assistant secretary of defense for Western Hemisphere affairs. At that meeting, Clarke said, the administration “made it very, very clear that the U.S. intent was to support democracy, human rights, but we, in no way, would support any coups or unconstitutional activity.”

Asked why the subject of coups came up, Clarke said she did not know “the original impetus” of the meeting.

And so now here we are again, with another strike.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/americas/12/04/venezuela.strike.ap/index.html

Chavez calls strike new coup attempt
Wednesday, December 4, 2002

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) – A nationwide strike escalated into angry street protests as Venezuelans riled by economic and political turmoil tried to force Hugo Chavez from the presidency of this polarized nation. Chavez said the strike won’t drive him out.

Anti-Chavez demonstrators massed around an air force base and at the headquarters of the national oil monopoly Tuesday. The national guard used tear gas and rubber bullets to drive them back from the strategic points.

Strikers vowed to continue their protests Wednesday against Chavez, whose leftist policies they blame for tough times. The economy has contracted 7 percent this year and half the work force doesn’t have a formal job.

Today, there are gas lines.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/americas/12/09/venezuela.strike.ap/index.html

Chavez uses troops to sell gas; strike continues
National guards takes over delivery trucks, gas stations

Monday, December 9, 2002

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) – A general strike aimed at ousting leftist President Hugo Chavez sparked panic buying across Venezuela as it entered its second week Monday, pushing the national guard to commandeer delivery trucks and force gas stations to open.

Chavez sent soldiers to protect oil wells and refineries from possible sabotage by strikers last week. On Sunday, he sent national guard troops to open gas stations in the capital and seized the trucks of striking delivery companies.

“They are failing to provide a public service, and that’s a crime,” Chavez said during a five-hour-plus edition of his weekly television and radio program, “Hello President.”

“These businessmen are violating the law. … It is a macabre plan we have to attack.”

Lines of cars stretched for blocks in Caracas as panic-buying at gas stations began. Troops stood by the pumps at some stations.

[Mighty_Girl]

Fantastic unbiased, objective report DuckDuck.

[ZooMetropolis]

Great report by Duck Duck Goose. This should get anyone going on a debate.

Colibri, let me say that I thought of that (about Chumpski), only that I believe he is Chavez! :eek:

Chavez, if you are Chumpsky, leave the presidence!!!