Venezuela's Situation

Great Debates
1

Since my other thread is a bit too old, I think i’ll start a new one with some fresh comments from a friend.

This was written by a venezuelan friend of mine that lives in the US:

The paragraphs about Fidel and Milosevic are too “conspiratory”. I don’t doubt it couldn’t be happening, but it is not proved (or at least i think so).

The paragraph with the Osama quote is a little bit exaggerated, and i think it is made just to make conscience in US citizens, but I don’t think it can go to that extreme point of view.

The rest of the paragraphs speak the true IMHO.

I would like to know what are the comments right now after almost a complete month of a general strike in Venezuela.

2

How many of these deposed generals supported the coup attempt? You can be sure that if a bunch of U.S. generals tried to engineer the overthrow of a U.S. President, no matter how corrupt, they would be in prison for treason.

I have my own reservations about Chavez, but I don’t see why you can’t wait until August for a referrendum, which Chavez has agreed to, correct? It just makes the opposition look like the hotheads here. I wonder if the real fear is that Chavez just might get re-elected. His support is strong among the poor, who are hard to reach through polls (supposedly his support is down to 30%, but I suspect these polls are heavily biased towards the wealthy & middle class).

3

This is unpopular I know, but I only perceive a denial that the opposition has no coherent point: “Chavez should renounce. We will use force to get Chavez. We in the opposition have not chosen a new leader with broad support yet, but Chavez should go now”, etc. As the Boston glove pointed recently: many of the requests of the opposition are contradictory. All that points to me to a situation were the remedy would be worse than the disease.

Once again: he was elected. I agree he is a big pig head, I agree that protests are good (except the ones by the media in Venezuela), but now Oil is getting into the big picture: A war with Iraq will mean that the Oil from Venezuela will be more important to the US. (This is now my gut feeling: Oil production will resume in Venezuela because the powers that be are more concerned of the chaos a new gulf war could wring, they will detest to have another unstable situation in Venezuela at the same time. I will wait for the negotiations and the strike situation to confirm this feeling)

The takeover point in the letter quoted is terribly misleading; AFAICR the oil group is supposed to be already a part of the government. A better analogy could be made that Chavez removal of the oil executives and managers is similar to Reagan kicking out striking air controllers.

The latest is that Brazil is gearing up to help with the oil production. Also OEA voted recently to support democracy in Venezuela (pragmatically supporting Chavez), and the OEA is back to mediate, the strike was not strong in poor areas, and in rich areas the strike is falling apart:

http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?objectID=1D568AD7-0A8A-440E-98E5D991B6480D4D

4

This guy is making disasters with the nation, period. To him, everything in Venezuela is normal, and it’s not.

In his recent speech of his TV program I find some stuff I must share:
This is what he was saying:

It’s a very short text, but basicly it’s the president all excited by the gasoline trucks (I’ll call them trucks) leaving the filling plant. And then he says a comment that he would like to be a truck driver.

The thing was all the trucks that were delivering gasoline where gathered in a very long line and made them wait until the TV program started, so the people could see in the background how they departed. Instead he could have really started delivering the trucks earlier, even a day earlier, and not wait for his little show.

This is the link for those who read spanish, it is the whole program written so it’s VERY long. http://www.globovision.com/documentos/discursos.transcripciones/2002.12/29/alopresidente/index.shtml

Here’s another extract from the text:

What he says here in a good phrase is this: "I will never, never, never, NEVER leave.

Note apart. There are rumors that there may be “catalitic nafta” (i don’t know the exact term) being replaced as gasoline, and a fact is that some insurance companies are not covering any accident caused by a gasoline replacement (i mean an alternate product) in the cars.

GIGO, of course we don’t want to wait until August, do you think it’s a short period from now to August?
Even the Chavists want the election. There was a group of Chavists saying that if the opposition wants an election, then the president should call one. There have been counted times in his program where the people call and ask him to call an election (you notice a look of surprise in his face) to show the opposition that he will win. He simply states that his beloved constitution doesn’t let him. (yes but he can do anything with that constitution if it is of his benefit).

I know that there’s not an opposition leader in Venezuela at the moment, and that is a big problem.

Chavez is seeing coup attempts everywhere now (VOANews):

And the worst thing is that he denies that his coup attempt in 1992 was one.

5

The OP is apparently also from a Venezuelan blog.

http://vtreactionary.blogspot.com/2002_12_29_vtreactionary_archive.html#86674005

Either Miguel Octavio copied it from Rogelio Carrillo Penso, or Rogelio Carrillo Penso copied it from Miguel Octavio. With the Internet and blogs, there’s probably no way of telling.

There are minor differences, and the ending is slightly different, too. The blogspot one ends:

6

That last reply from ZooMetropolis is making it sound like it is the oposition that is getting desperate.
Chavez message that he will not leave looks to me more like he will stay in Venezuela, it may infer to Zoo that he wants to be a dictator for life, but to me it infers, that even if he leaves the presidency, he will remain in Venezuela.

That last remark is curious, because he was sent to jail for that coup.

And another thing I noticed: Chavez going to other countries, while at the same time, a “strong” opposition is going, shows that he is confident he will weather this storm. I tell you though that now there will be another point to throw at him on the next election: His failure to act quickly did affect the Venezuelan people, it is time to change.

Just not now; without another leader that has popular support the Pinochet option will become a reality, if Chavez leaves in this conditions.

And as DDG found: be careful with quotes that are not atributed properly.

7

Yes, I do. Democracy requires patience. As much as I detest the Bush administration, I will wait patiently almost two years for the chance to boot his ass out of office.

Tell me, though… Suppose Chavez does agree to prompt elections, and – by some miracle – he wins. Do you think the opposition will respect this? Will you?

8

Well, they may have a case, but they have chosen to present it in lurid and inflamatory rhetoric. Venzuela’s lefty presidente certainly isn’t to everybody’s taste. But what has he done that can possibly draw a parallel to turning America’s government over to Osama bin Laden? That’s just plain nuts.

After all, the guy was elected, was he not? Is there some evidence of voter fraud, coercion, intimidation? Has he created any disappeared ones? Given the general flavor of South America’s bloody reigns of right wing terrorists, he seems rather mild in comparison.

And the irony of pleading to America, whose current Presidente actually lost the popular vote, is very droll.

9

I’m sorry if the qute wasn’t by him, but that was a message that I recieved, if it was modified or something, I don’t know, but I found it courius and thought to start a thread with it.

IMO the opposition will respect the decision, or at least I would.

10

Ace, I know democracy requires patience, but I don’t know if you know this: Chavez was elected in 1998 to be president from 1999 to 2004 (including that year), but he changed the constitution in 2000 and he called elections. He won, and he is supposed to rule until 1/10/2007. That’s from 1999 to 2007, 8 years ruling, two presidential periods in the US if i’m not mistaken. And another thing, I don’t think that you can compare Bush to Chavez.

11

I am impressed by the number of lies and distortions packed into one little post, there ZooMetropolis. Let us take a look.

There has been no strike in Venezuela. What is happening now is a lock-out.

From your friend:

What would America do if your President Owned (yes owned, not influenced) Congress, the Supreme Court, the Attorney General, and all high officials?

The President does not own the congress, supreme court, etc.

What would America do if President George Bush forced Secretary Colin Powell into early retirement, and with him, most 4, 3 and 2 Star Generals, and replaced them with One Star Generals and Colonels that he feels are true to him?

What if Colin Powell and the other 4 star generals tried to overthrow the government and institute a dictatorship? I’d say that being forced into early retirement is getting off incredibly easy. Execution or lifetime imprisonment would be a more suitable punishment.

What would America do if 22 million Americans demanded to have Free Elections to do away with a corrupt Government it found it had decided to openly embrace communism, but you didn’t vote to have your Democracy assassinated?

Chavez has not openly embraced communism. And no, Americans do not have the right to demand an election half-way through the president’s term.

What would America do if President George Bush decided that he didn’t trust the Army to be unconditional to him, and thus decided to have Milosevic send him some of his Elite troops to protects him from the American Citizens and assure he stays in power?

Milosevic? How idiotic. A number of generals in the Venezuelan army freakin’ participated in a coup, for chrissake! What do you expect, to put them right back in their old jobs!? Jesus fucking christ.

What would America do if President Bush sent the Vice President Dick Cheney to the negotiation meetings with the opposition leaders, and at the Government marchs, all he does is make speeches of division: “We don’t want anything with that side”.

That’s exactly what Bush does all the time.

What would America do if President Bush decided to fire all management and and take over EXXON MOBIL, AMOCO, CONOCOPHILLIPS, SHELL America, CHEVRONTEXACO, OCCIDENTAL PETROLEUM, SUNOCO, and all smaller oil companies, and when the American citizens working in them went on Strike, President Bush decided to call the National Guard to attack these unarmed protesters, men and women, with Tear Gas and hit them with Machetes?

The citizens of Venezuela have not gone on strike. It is a lock-out by management. Furthermore, the largest oil company in Venezuela was already state-owned.

What would America do if President Bush asked Fidel Castro to invade the USA on his behalf, have mercenaries come ashore and put them in the officers home’s in Annapolis, Tallahassee, the Georgia and South Carolina coast , and have Mrs. Powell and the wives of other officers cook for them so that these mercenaries are not seen or detected by the way they speak?

It gets more insane by the minute.

What would America do if 120 million Americans took to the streets in protest against a legally elected President who decided that he didn’t like Democracy any more, and that Americans would now be ruled by Osama Bin Laden and friends?

Chavez has never done anything to upset democracy in Venezuela, unlike his opponents, who, I remind you, tried to oust him in a military coup d’etat and install a dictatorship.

These incredible things are happening in Venezuela right now. The citizens of Venezuela will not give up. Are you going to continue to support “President” Chavez’s Regime and have our blood in your conscience?

These things are not happening right now, and the citizens of Venezuela are mostly behind Chavez, unlike the liar who wrote this letter.

Oil will not flow as long as this modern day Dictator is in Power.

Dictator? Chavez was elected twice, and was brought back to power by the people after being ousted in a coup. Some dictator.

America: What are you going to do?

Fight against lying bastards like yourself.

12

There you go Chumpsky, keeping up the standards in GD. Calling the OP a “lying bastards” will not look good in your curriculum.

As I said in the other thread about this:

  1. Chavez is a clueless idiot.
  2. He was elected, fair and square.
  3. He should resign but won’t.
  4. He should not be ousted by a coup.
  5. The people have the right to protest.
  6. There’s not clear cut solution to this mess.
  7. Things will get worse before they get better.

God (or deity of your preference) help Venezuela.

13

There you go Chumpsky, keeping up the standards in GD. Calling the OP a “lying bastard” will not look good in your curriculum.

As I said in the other thread about this:

  1. Chavez is a clueless idiot.
  2. He was elected, fair and square.
  3. He should resign but won’t.
  4. He should not be ousted by a coup.
  5. The people have the right to protest.
  6. There’s not clear cut solution to this mess.
  7. Things will get worse before they get better.

God (or deity of your preference) help Venezuela.

14

  1. and stay calm while our country goes to hell? Money is desapearing here! Alot of money fron the FIEM is lost and noone knows for what the gov is using it! and aparently noone from the gov. wants to search for it. the Congress didn want to open a investigation, why? maybe because chavists are majority.

  2. Re-elected??? then why the gov have so much fear to go to an election?

The thing is: we are not going to sit and look how that cabron (thats an insult) steal our money! we wnt yhim out and now! wait till August? why? we are asking for a referendum thats constitutional.

I’n my opinion this guy isnt gonna leave the power by good ways (por las buenas) here people are living with the hope that Chavez reflects bout what hes doing.

P.D: Sorry bout my english

15

The comment was directed at the writer of the letter, claimed (apparently untruthfully) by the OP to be a personal friend.

No. If he was, you guys wouldn’t be so anxious to get rid of him; you wouldn’t be so terrified that your position of privilege riding on the backs of the Venezuelan poor would be jeopardized. He is no idiot, it’s just that you don’t like what he is doing because he does not represent your class.

Why should he? Because you don’t like him?

Sure there is. The management bastards should end the lock-out and let the country go back to work. They should stop holding the country hostage for their personal greed.

This is only due to Chavez in the same sense that a wife who has been beaten for years is responsible for the retaliation when she starts to fight back.

16

False. You are holding the country hostage with the lock-out to force a completely unconstitutional change of government.

Geez, man. At least be honest about your underhandedness.

17

CHUMPSKY:

I was wondering… do you live here??? THERE IS A STRIKE!!! I see it every day from my window!

Again… DO YOU LIVE HERE?

The highest rank general from our armed forces (Carlos Alfonzo Martínez) is currently being held by military forces unauthorized by law to do this when the our supreme court ruled on his behalf and ordered his release. I was wondering Is that a good sign?

ohhh… and another thing…

YOU ARE THE LYING BASTARD!!!

PD: all quotes from chumpsky the liar!

18

No, what you see is a lock-out. A strike is when the workers withhold their labour power to try to force concessions from management. This is not what is happening in Venezuela. What is happening is that the management is preventing the workers from going to work. This is called a lock-out, and is done for symmetrically opposite reasons for a strike. It is the inverse of a strike. Just because the lying bastards who run the private media in Venezuela call it a strike, and just because the rest of the smarmy, vicious lapdogs in the corporate media in the west repeat these claims, does not make it so. It is a lock-out, not a strike.

Defend our brothers and sisters in Venezuela against the oligarchy!
POWER TO THE PEOPLE!

19

“Artículo 71. Las materias de especial trascendencia nacional podrán ser sometidas a referendo consultivo por iniciativa del Presidente o Presidenta de la República en Consejo de Ministros; por acuerdo de la Asamblea Nacional, aprobado por el voto de la mayoría de sus integrantes; o a solicitud de un número no menor del diez por ciento de los electores y electoras inscritos en el registro civil y electoral.”

I see you don’t have any idea of what you’re posting

Traduction: Things of special trascendence for the nation can be asked in a consultive referendum. by initiative of the president in ministry council (i dnt know the exact term), the congress, or solicitation of no less than the ten percent of the electors.

The resignation of the president is a trascendent matter and exactly around the 15% of the votants asked for it!

I THINK THAT REFERENDUM IS CONSTITUTIONAL!!!

see chumpsky… u dont even know what you are posting!

P.D: if someone can give a more accurate traduction that article i’ll be pleased!

20

Workers are NOT going to work!!! what about transnationals like Procter&Gamble, Microsoft… they’re not working because the workers are not going! how are they preventing workers from going to work???